Is it time to give up on Nazi war criminals in Canada?

Sat, 2010-02-20 10:39

#2

NDPP

Let's get all the war criminals - Nazi, Lib, Cons etc...

Sat, 2010-02-20 10:42

#3

al-Qa'bong

Go after the people who say the actual words: Bush, Cheney, Rice, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Perle, Blair, and Powell.

Sat, 2010-02-20 10:52

#4

SparkyOne

NoDifferencePartyPooper wrote:

Let's get all the war criminals - Nazi, Lib, Cons etc...

My mom is a war criminal to be lumped in with the Nazi's because she a liberal?

Seriously NDPP? Why is someone who is a Liberal a war criminal?

Sat, 2010-02-20 10:53

#5

Stargazer

Hell SparkyOne, my mom voted Reform awhile back! My mom! She is from Toronto. Now that was embarassing.

Sat, 2010-02-20 10:58

#6

kropotkin1951

Maybe the NDP should be as proactive on his behalf as they are on behalf of the KGB agent who lied to get into Canada. He says the same thing; "the devil made me take this cushy job I didn't really do anything except push paper and translate other peoples communications in a dark corner."

Sat, 2010-02-20 11:05

#7

NDPP

SparkyOne wrote:

NoDifferencePartyPooper wrote:

Let's get all the war criminals - Nazi, Lib, Cons etc...

My mom is a war criminal to be lumped in with the Nazi's because she a liberal?

Seriously NDPP? Why is someone who is a Liberal a war criminal?

Lib war criminals not your mom...

Sat, 2010-02-20 11:35

#8

Prophit

Some of these comments are disgusting. Comparing Nazi war criminals to Canadian politicians? What can you be thinking.

Sat, 2010-02-20 12:08

#9

SparkyOne

Prophit wrote:
Some of these comments are disgusting. Comparing Nazi war criminals to Canadian politicians? What can you be thinking.

I can't even tell if you're being sarcastic or not because there are some posters here who actually don't see the diference.

Sat, 2010-02-20 12:10

#10

SparkyOne

Stargazer, I'm too embarassed to say who my mom voted for!

Sat, 2010-02-20 12:34

#11

Jaku

Perhaps there are some here who simply choose to make fun of the fact that these alleged Nazi war criminals aided and abetted in the mass murder of 6 million Jews, tens of thousands of Roma and Sinti people and scores of others. For those who otherwise consider themselves progressive and anti-fascist this is abominable behaviour.

As for the question posed by Gus Williams, real Nazi collaborators like Oberlander, in my view have obtained their Canadian citizenship fraudulently. As a member of an Eizatsgruppa (for those who want to continue to make light of this, Oberlander's very small killing unit murdered over 90,000 human beings, mostly Jews. They were forced marched into the forests, made to strip, dig their own graves and then summarily shot), Oberlander would never have been permitted entry to Canada had he told Canadian officials at the time of his disgraceful service.

These men and women who perpetrated these crimes against humanity deserve no sympathy. They must be hunted down and brought to justice.

Sat, 2010-02-20 12:45

#12

Prophit

SparkyOne wrote:

Prophit wrote:
Some of these comments are disgusting. Comparing Nazi war criminals to Canadian politicians? What can you be thinking.

I can't even tell if you're being sarcastic or not because there are some posters here who actually don't see the diference.

I am not being one bit sarcastic. Williams asked a legitimate question only to be met by comparisons of Nazi war criminals to Liberals, US politicians and other bizarre analogies. It is insensitive to those who were slaughtered and belittles the horrible crimes perpetrated by these Nazis.

As for Mr. Oberlander the problem from my reading seems to be that all the witnesses to the actions undertaken by his mobile killing unit were murdered. The Nazis were very good at their job. Oberlander may never have pulled a trigger but he was part and parcel of the Nazi killing machine. Does it matter what role you played, whether a shooter, an administrator, a paper pusher or a translater? All helped in ensuring the efficient running of a mobile killing unit and in the eyes of justice all are guilty.

Sat, 2010-02-20 13:13

#13

Cookiebehbeh

As sympathetic as I am to this question I really wonder about going after men who are today in their 80s and 90s. What's the cost benefit? Perhaps its time to spend our energies elsewhere.

Sat, 2010-02-20 13:29

#14

Gus Williams

Cookiebehbeh, that argument appeals to me least. Ought we to reward criminal behaviour based on longevity? With your suggestion murderes who get away with their crimes to a ripe old age need never face justice. Just doesn't seem right to me.

Jaku and profit, the actions of a couple of Babblers should not be seen as common thinking here. I simply cannot imagine, not for one moment, that any true progressive thinker would want to end the search for Nazi war criminals in Canada. Yes Im disappointed at those who have tried to turn this into a satire but they are , must be, the exception to the rule. At least I hope so.

Sat, 2010-02-20 13:34

#15

Gus Williams

Fidel's passion is I believe a better example of how most Babblers would feel.

Sat, 2010-02-20 13:38

#16

Fidel

Cookiebehbeh wrote:

As sympathetic as I am to this question I really wonder about going after men who are today in their 80s and 90s. What's the cost benefit? Perhaps its time to spend our energies elsewhere.

I'd be willing to show these old men as much mercy as they showed for the old men and old women and children they prodded to the gas chambers and crematoria, firing squads etc. Iow's, fuck 'em!

These old bastards' jobs now is to admit their crimes to the world in a court of law. And may their blood scream for all eternity.

Sat, 2010-02-20 13:46

#17

George Victor

Yes. The most common point of sympathy in Oberlander's Ontario community ( known as Berlin until 1915) was that he was 17 years old when he was conscriipted. But, of course, there is no sign that he woke with nightmares through his years as a successful and wealthy developer in a community where your Volkswagen mechanic will explain to you that Moscow would have fallen before Christmas 1941 if only the Nazi bureaucras had been more aware of the need for light oil and heavy uniforms in a Russian winter.

Of course he should be deported, but that is now a broken reed.

Sat, 2010-02-20 13:51

#18

Fidel

Prophit wrote:
Some of these comments are disgusting. Comparing Nazi war criminals to Canadian politicians? What can you be thinking.

Our politicians welcomed Nazis and their collaborators with open arms policies afer the war. Thousands of them. And for many years Ottawa refused other countries extradition requests where terrible crimes were perpetrated. Why?

Sat, 2010-02-20 14:37

#19

contrarianna

Regardless of what is to be done with the old bastards, the fixation on the few remaining degenerate nonagenarians from WWII as the only War Criminals worth the name, serves to keep the question of War Crimes fixed and privileged by a particular time, and frequently ethnicity.

It is a betrayal of the memory of all those murdered as it is a betrayal of the Nuremberg Principles--and the many millions murdered and dispossessed throughout the world as a result equally real War Crimes since WWII.

The function of the Nuremberg Trials was not only to bring the then War Criminals to trial but to establish Principles by which future War Crimes may be assertained and prosecuted.
Except for a few selective instances initiated by controlling powers, the vast majority of contemporary, and still active, War Criminals go blissfully unmolested.

Nuremberg Principles:

Quote:

Principle I states, "Any person who commits an act which constitutes a crime under international law is responsible therefore and liable to punishment."

Principle II states, "The fact that internal law does not impose a penalty for an act which constitutes a crime under international law does not relieve the person who committed the act from responsibility under international law."
[edit] Principle III

Principle III states, "The fact that a person who committed an act which constitutes a crime under international law acted as Head of State or responsible government official does not relieve him from responsibility under international law."

Principle IV states: "The fact that a person acted pursuant to order of his Government or of a superior does not relieve him from responsibility under international law, provided a moral choice was in fact possible to him".

This principle could be paraphrased as follows: "It is not an acceptable excuse to say 'I was just following my superior's orders'".

Previous to the time of the Nuremberg Trials, this excuse was known in common parlance as "Superior Orders". After the prominent, high profile event of the Nuremberg Trials, that excuse is now referred to by many as "Nuremberg Defense". In recent times, a third term, "Lawful orders" has become common parlance for some people. All three terms are in use today, and they all have slightly different nuances of meaning, depending on the context in which they are used.

Nuremberg Principle IV is legally supported by the jurisprudence found in certain articles in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights which deal indirectly with conscientious objection. It is also supported by the principles found in paragraph 171 of the Handbook on Procedures and Criteria for Determining Refugee Status which was issued by the Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR). Those principles deal with the conditions under which conscientious objectors can apply for refugee status in another country if they face persecution in their own country for refusing to participate in an illegal war.
See also: Nuremberg Defense, Superior Orders, and Lawful orders

Principle V states, "Any person charged with a crime under international law has the right to a fair trial on the facts and law."

Principle VI states,

"The crimes hereinafter set out are punishable as crimes under international law:

    (a) Crimes against peace:

        (i) Planning, preparation, initiation or waging of a war of aggression or a war in violation of international treaties, agreements or assurances;

        (ii) Participation in a common plan or conspiracy for the accomplishment of any of the acts mentioned under (i).

    (b) War Crimes:

    Violations of the laws or customs of war which include, but are not limited to, murder, ill-treatment or deportation of slave labor or for any other purpose of the civilian population of or in occupied territory; murder or ill-treatment of prisoners of war or persons on the Seas, killing of hostages, plunder of public or private property, wanton destruction of cities, towns, or villages, or devastation not justified by military necessity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Principles

Sat, 2010-02-20 14:42

#20

Lord Palmerston

Jaku wrote:
These men and women who perpetrated these crimes against humanity deserve no sympathy. They must be hunted down and brought to justice.

I agree, and lumping "Liberals" with Nazis is over the top and insulting.

Sat, 2010-02-20 14:52

#21

SparkyOne

It is very over the top. Referencing Nazi's for just about everything happens too much.

Sat, 2010-02-20 15:14

#22

Unionist

Jaku wrote:

Perhaps there are some here who simply choose to make fun of the fact that these alleged Nazi war criminals aided and abetted in the mass murder of 6 million Jews, tens of thousands of Roma and Sinti people and scores of others. For those who otherwise consider themselves progressive and anti-fascist this is abominable behaviour.

That's such a filthy lie, invented out of whole cloth, evidenced by nothing and no one in this thread, that it proves the real motive behind this thread (yes - Gus, Jaku, Prophit) - to create some sort of sick scandal by trying to draw out an offensive comment from some babbler. The very worst you could find was NDPP's foolish comment about Liberals etc. You couldn't even manage to dredge up one babbler to say "no, we shouldn't hunt them down, we should forgive the animals". But that doesn't stop you from your libel. Why, perhaps this thread will get tabulated by Frank Dimant as 19 antisemitic events in Canada in 2010.

You don't have to go far to find antisemitism or denial of war crimes and crimes against humanity in Canada. But to look for it in this thread is sick. It is exactly the abuse of the Nazi genocide that Finkelstein warns about.

Sat, 2010-02-20 15:20

#23

Unionist

contrarianna wrote:

Regardless of what is to be done with the old bastards, the fixation on the few remaining degenerate nonagenarians from WWII as the only War Criminals worth the name, serves to keep the question of War Crimes fixed and privileged by a particular time, and frequently ethnicity.

No one shares that "fixation" except some pro-Israel fanatics who are trying to use the Nazi genocide to cover up modern-day crimes against humanity - maybe I should add Harper and Co., but those antisemitic neocons show no sign of giving a shit about the remaining Nazi collaborators in this country. Have you seen any evidence of their intent to hunt down and cage these devils? I haven't.

But at least a precedent for conducting trials on charges of genocide has begun in this country (rather than just deporting the lowlifes to countries that care enough to take action) - as we saw in the recent case of [url=http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/Munyaneza+sentenced+life+prison/2158... Munyaneza[/url], sentenced to life in prison after being found guilty last May in Montréal of seven counts of genocide, war crimes and crimes against humanity during the Rwandan genocide. Let us hope that the Nazis and their collaborators will be hunted down and brought to trial here. They should count themselves lucky that we are too human to mete out to them the punishment which they visited upon their victims.

Sat, 2010-02-20 15:37

#24

Michelle

This is hilarious. Sorry, but I think this thread was a troll job from the beginning, and a whole bunch of you fell for it.

Gus Williams has always been part of the Jaku pack, in almost any thread where the usual gang posts, reinforcing each other - I have a hard time believing he's undecided about whether Nazi war criminals should be shipped out of Canada, as he pretended to be in the opening post. Indeed, in a subsequent post, he states the obvious, and his true opinion:

Quote:

I simply cannot imagine, not for one moment, that any true progressive thinker would want to end the search for Nazi war criminals in Canada.

So he starts this thread to see whether he can get people to say, "Hey, let the poor Nazi go," so that the rest of his buddies in the Jaku crowd can come in and exclaim how horrible and insensitive those terrible lefties are, and how soft they are on anti-semitism.

And then a couple of babblers gave him a reward by making hyperbolic jokes comparing Libs and Cons to Nazis.

Congrats, Gus and the boys, you got your fish!

Edited to add: Ha, I just read Unionist's post now. Great minds think alike, I guess! Glad I'm not the only one who recognized this thread for the troll job it is. My suggestion? Ignore it, folks, now that you know what its purpose is.

Sat, 2010-02-20 15:55

#25

skdadl

They also got that ringing statement from contrarianna, though, every word of which I can sign on to. I would like to see action on that front, and Canada has had a number of opportunities, already squandered, either to arrest war criminals from the Bush regime or at the very least to forbid them entry.

To the OP: what about people who were members of the Hitler Youth? Someone who was 15 in 1945 would be 80 this year. There are certainly former Hitler Youth in this country who've never been investigated.

Sat, 2010-02-20 16:03

#26

NDPP

Not 'over the top' at all and referencing Nazis is deliberately done to alert you to the fact that fascist forces are very much alive here and not just in the PMO past and present either. Please read Contrarianna's post and think about what Nuremberg says and means.

the waging of aggressive war, such as Canada's political representatives have assisted with and participated in, is considered by the highest international legal authorities to be the penultimate war crime. Just because the criminals themselves control the process which would ordinarily make them accountable doesn't change the law, no matter how wilfully blind or deluded the public.

I can assure you that in a perfect world with a functioning international war crimes process Canadian politicians could quiet easily find themselves in the docket, for a growing list of war crimes - bombing Yugoslavia, the forced starvation of Iraq, invading Afghanistan, etc etc. Nuremberg can and should apply as easily to fascist war criminals in Canada, USA, or Britain now, as it did to Germans or Japanese then. No impunity for war crimes even if they're ours..

Sat, 2010-02-20 16:11

#27

Unionist

NDPP, I agree with you - fully - but please understand that your throwaway comment about "Nazis, Libs, Cons" was unhelpful, inaccurate, incomplete, and played into the hands of the provocateurs here.

There are war criminals around of every persuasion - neolib, neocon, social democratic, communist - but none of the above are ipso facto war criminals. That's an [b]individual[/b] responsibility - evidence must be brought against the [b]individual[/b]. Yes, Harper is guilty of war crimes IMO, though it will take a while before we have a justice system in place that can properly investigate and prosecute those. But to suggest that therefore "conservatives are war criminals" - or how about everyone who votes conservative - is an exaggeration that renders meaningless the charge against Harper. Hope we're on the same page here.

Sat, 2010-02-20 16:30

#28

NDPP

I meant of course those Nazis, Cons or Libs who ARE war criminals, not that ALL Nazis, Cons, Libs, etc. ARE war criminals. My comment was not a joke, throwaway or inaccurate but thanks for helping to clarify any inadvertent confusion just the same Unionist..

Sat, 2010-02-20 16:30

#29

skdadl

Well, there is considerable evidence that particular CSIS agents and particular representatives from DFAIT -- none of whom would have been acting on her/his own -- have acted in ways that violate international law, and that some someones in CSIS (and presumably Justice) have authorized the use of tainted evidence (derived from torture, notably of Abu Zubaydah and of Omar Khadr, that last proved by CSIS indirectly) in a number of legal cases.

All those are cases of much more direct complicity in serious violations of international law, some rising to the level of war crimes, than we yet know of for sure in the case of the transfer of prisoners in Afghanistan (although that is starting to look worse than many thought at first). Several PMs and a number of ministers would be directly responsible as well, although I believe there is a principle in law that the longer the offence continues, the greater the responsibility, and Harper certainly seems determined, through his appalling justice department, to continue any number of offences. I'd love to see a judge warn one of those government lawyers to bring a toothbrush the next time he appears in court with such crappy arguments.

I don't know how we get to prosecution of these crimes, though. The home country is supposed to have the responsibility first. If we can't do it soon, though, maybe some of us should start writing letters to that nice Mr Garzon in Spain.

Sat, 2010-02-20 16:41

#30

Unionist

I agree with you, skdadl - but here's my dilemma. I think sending troops to Afghanistan at the behest of the United States on or about October 7, 2001; increasing our presence; calling in air strikes; fighting against insurgents; propping up a puppet regime that couldn't survive two seconds without foreign armed support... all these are far worse crimes than handing over some detainees to possible or probable or certain torture. That's what I meant about not yet having a justice system in place that's willing or able to investigate and prosecute the real war crimes. Not that torture (or rather rendition) isn't reall or a crime. It's kind of a forest and trees thing.

But back to the Nazis issue - we should hunt them down and make them face justice here - and we should be pointing fingers at Harper and his ilk while doing so and saying, "Never again!"

Sat, 2010-02-20 16:41

#31

NDPP

Is Canada's Defense Mininster A War Criminal?

http://www.thestar.com/article/208200

anyway no more drift from me here since we clearly prefer 'Nazi' war criminals to our domestic variety

Sat, 2010-02-20 16:48

#32

skdadl

Um, Unionist, I wasn't mainly writing about the situation with the transfer of prisoners in Afghanistan, although I mentioned it. I was talking about major cases, where CSIS and DFAIT have played games in the interrogation of rendered or illegally imprisoned persons, or where they have used tainted evidence in court.

I agree with you that aggressive war is also the worst of the war crimes, but there is absolutely no way to play down what CSIS have been authorized to do over the last nine years imho. Bagram, GTMO, Syria, Egypt, Pakistan, places we don't know about ... And then the use in Canadian courts of evidence extracted from people interrogated in all those places and more. Tell me those are little crimes.

Sat, 2010-02-20 16:50

#33

Unionist

No, we don't "prefer" them NDPP, it's just what this baiting thread was about - and it's another sign of how threads like this do damage to rational discourse. The urgency of going after Nazi war criminals is about one millionth that of apprehending those who are committing war crimes today. But certain people can only recognize war crimes in the past - or in Darfur. The present and their own back yard all look very cool to them.

Sat, 2010-02-20 16:54

#34

Unionist

Skdadl - you are correct - I concede your point unconditionally. I was only expressing my own frustration about the detainee debate, where certain political leaders find a way to avoid addressing the underlying problem - they even turn it into "respect for parliament" and other diversionary nonsense. That's what got me to focus on one narrow point. There is no way I would minimize the crimes you alluded to - just take the interrogation of Omar Khadr as a flagrant example.

Sat, 2010-02-20 17:05

#35

skdadl

Unionist, I started out being a bit frustrated with the focus on prisoner transfer too, because I'd already been fixed on complicity in clearly heinous cases for so long and wasn't sure that this was complicity in the same sense. Harper's reaction over months, though, has made me begin to wonder. Why would you stonewall and lie -- stupidly, too, in ways easily exposed -- when it would have been so much easier to explain so much away by being apologetic about incompetence and disorganization?

Anyway, I'm sure we agree generally. I can get carried away on this turf because torture is what I live and breathe most of the time, and it's not just the torture of Canadians that is driving me every day. Like contrarianna, I want to know where Nuremberg went. I'm appalled that so many Westerners don't seem to recognize the ways it has been rationalized away.

Anne Frank would be 80 right now, 81 sometime in June. I know that because I work on her and Margot's story sometimes too. Miep Gies would have been 101 earlier this week, except she died last month.

Sat, 2010-02-20 18:04

#36

Jaku

Michelle wrote:

This is hilarious. Sorry, but I think this thread was a troll job from the beginning, and a whole bunch of you fell for it.

Gus Williams has always been part of the Jaku pack, in almost any thread where the usual gang posts, reinforcing each other - I have a hard time believing he's undecided about whether Nazi war criminals should be shipped out of Canada, as he pretended to be in the opening post. Indeed, in a subsequent post, he states the obvious, and his true opinion:

Quote:

I simply cannot imagine, not for one moment, that any true progressive thinker would want to end the search for Nazi war criminals in Canada.

So he starts this thread to see whether he can get people to say, "Hey, let the poor Nazi go," so that the rest of his buddies in the Jaku crowd can come in and exclaim how horrible and insensitive those terrible lefties are, and how soft they are on anti-semitism.

And then a couple of babblers gave him a reward by making hyperbolic jokes comparing Libs and Cons to Nazis.

Congrats, Gus and the boys, you got your fish!

Edited to add: Ha, I just read Unionist's post now. Great minds think alike, I guess! Glad I'm not the only one who recognized this thread for the troll job it is. My suggestion? Ignore it, folks, now that you know what its purpose is.

This is a joke right? You actually believe that Gus Williams trolled this, then called all his buddies (home on a Saturday just waiting for the grand conspiracy) to join in on the fun? Michelle, you need a vacation.

Sat, 2010-02-20 18:27

#37

Unionist

Divert, distract, diffuse, dement, delude, disinform, don't let them get near the truth... Don't... Do not...

Oh, sorry.

By the way, there's no "grand conspiracy". It's just a meeting of the minds. Predictable. Pathetic.

Sat, 2010-02-20 18:32

#38

Jaku

"Divert, distract, diffuse, dement, delude, disinform, don't let them get near the truth" what are you babbling about? Williams posed a question on Nazi war criminals. A fair question that many people talk about. No hidden agenda from what any normal person can see. If you believe in conspiracies you can see fireflies in your shit.

Unionist is it not possible that the question was the question? Or are you so singularly focused on Israel as bad that you can see absolutely nothing else?

Sat, 2010-02-20 18:45

#39

skdadl

Jaku, if the question was the question, how does "this got me thinking" accord with Gus's later line, "I simply cannot imagine, not for one moment, that any true progressive thinker would want to end the search for Nazi war criminals in Canada"?

That was Michelle's point. Gus's thoughts are shorter than one moment? It takes me longer than "one moment" to type out a comment here. How could Gus not have short-circuited himself before he got to the end of the OP if his later comment is sincere?

Sat, 2010-02-20 18:45

#40

George Victor

"This is a joke right? You actually believe that Gus Williams trolled this, then called all his buddies (home on a Saturday just waiting for the grand conspiracy) to join in on the fun? Michelle, you need a vacation."

And you, jackal, need to return to your hole with the others.

Sat, 2010-02-20 19:03

#41

Jaku

skdadl wrote:

Jaku, if the question was the question, how does "this got me thinking" accord with Gus's later line, "I simply cannot imagine, not for one moment, that any true progressive thinker would want to end the search for Nazi war criminals in Canada"?

That was Michelle's point. Gus's thoughts are shorter than one moment? It takes me longer than "one moment" to type out a comment here. How could Gus not have short-circuited himself before he got to the end of the OP if his later comment is sincere?

Skdadl, who knows...maybe it was a set-up question, maybe he was thinking about it, was convinced at one time then wavered, hell who cares? All I'm suggesting is that the question is legit and that a couple people answered stupidly was a bit of a surprise but it should not have derailed the question. For any part I played in that I apologize. But the suggestion that we "trolls' set this up for something is ridiculous.

Sat, 2010-02-20 19:04

#42

Lord Palmerston

The worst Jaku et. al. could get from this board is the idiotic "Nazi, Lib, Con" comment. What exactly is the point of this thread?

I also think that Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld are war criminals who should be prosecuted for crimes against humanity - I'm curious if you guys think that means I'm "trivializing" Oberlander and other Nazi war criminals.

Sat, 2010-02-20 19:19

#43

Prophit

Michelle, I admonished the two posters very early on this thread. It was proper and had anyone else of your buddies had done so there would be no controversy.

Seems to me you cannot help but to be critical of any poster to babble who is not part of the "in" crowd. You seem to look for things that are just not there.

I do not know Gus Williams or Jaku or whoever you are so sure I am involved with. I have been nothing but open with who I am and even where I work. If you actually read my post you will have noticed that I was one of the few that actually responded to the question of this thread. Appears to me that if anyone is deviating, obfuscating, distracting, deluding etc etc it is all those who are looking for dark and dirty secrets that are simply not there. How disappointing!

Sat, 2010-02-20 19:25

#44

skdadl

Lord Palmerston wrote:

The worst Jaku et. al. could get from this board is the idiotic "Nazi, Lib, Con" comment. What exactly is the point of this thread?

I also think that Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld are war criminals who should be prosecuted for crimes against humanity - I'm curious if you guys think that means I'm "trivializing" Oberlander and other Nazi war criminals.

I obviously don't think you're trivializing, LP. I recognize that the running discussion between Unionist and me is maybe drift, given the OP. If a mod wants us to stop, I will. I mean no disrespect.

I think about war crimes almost full time, although I'm no encyclopedia -- obviously, I think about the ones that are right in front of me, and these days, those tend to be U.S., Canadian, British, and ... well, other. Torture is my subcategory, which is why I don't go too far into the other.

But gimme a war crime, and I'll think about it.

Sat, 2010-02-20 19:28

#45

skdadl

Prophit wrote:
Michelle, I admonished the two posters very early on this thread. It was proper and had anyone else of your buddies had done so there would be no controversy.

Aw, c'mon -- we're not taking attendance on babble, are we?

Sat, 2010-02-20 19:36

#46

George Victor

Prophit wrote:
Michelle, I admonished the two posters very early on this thread. It was proper and had anyone else of your buddies had done so there would be no controversy. Seems to me you cannot help but to be critical of any poster to babble who is not part of the "in" crowd. You seem to look for things that are just not there. I do not know Gus Williams or Jaku or whoever you are so sure I am involved with. I have been nothing but open with who I am and even where I work. If you actually read my post you will have noticed that I was one of the few that actually responded to the question of this thread. Appears to me that if anyone is deviating, obfuscating, distracting, deluding etc etc it is all those who are looking for dark and dirty secrets that are simply not there. How disappointing!

When you can walk up to the vanguard and declare everyone there out to lunch, Prophit, you should yourself find a quiet spot for serious reflection...out of the sun.

Sat, 2010-02-20 19:52

#47

Thomas Gallowglass

skdadl wrote:

gimme a war crime, and I'll think about it.

Like this?

http://www.zimguardian.com/?p=2037

a snippet:

Protais Mpiranya, one of the most wanted genocide suspects is being hidden by the Zimbabwean Government, new reports from the Southern African country indicate.

Mpiranya, the former Commander of the Presidential Guard during the 1994 genocide against the Tutsi is being pursued by Belgian authorities and is also on the list of 13 most wanted persons by the Arusha-based International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda.

He also appears on the list of most wanted persons for genocide and war crimes, under the US Rewards for Justice Programme, with a $5m bounty.

Fresh reports by Belgian authorities indicate that Mpiranya is hiding in Zimbabwe, and is reportedly operating businesses in Harare, on top of acting as mercenary for the ruling party ZANU-PF to silence the opposition.

We've got a lot of this sort of stuff around here...does it get much play in the Western Press?

Sat, 2010-02-20 20:08

#48

skdadl

Thomas, you're right. Most news from Africa gets too little play in the Western press. I didn't know about Mpiranya, eg, although I suspect there are a couple of good reporters at least at the Globe and Mail who do. They sometimes get their chance in the paper, but it's hard for any of them to do sustained work.

I would look to the blogosphere, actually, to find groups active in following these stories. That's where I do most of my torture studies, mine concentrated on what has radiated out from the imperial centre of the moment -- ie, the U.S. It's difficult to get any of our own stories covered regularly in Canada unless we've got a court case going -- the British press are much better, although they have courts that have kept going more aggressively too.

Sat, 2010-02-20 20:10

#49

NDPP

Thomas Gallowglass wrote:

Like this?

http://www.zimguardian.com/?p=2037

a snippet:

Protais Mpiranya, one of the most wanted genocide suspects is being hidden by the Zimbabwean Government, new reports from the Southern African country indicate.

Mpiranya, the former Commander of the Presidential Guard during the 1994 genocide against the Tutsi is being pursued by Belgian authorities and is also on the list of 13 most wanted persons by the Arusha-based International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda.

He also appears on the list of most wanted persons for genocide and war crimes, under the US Rewards for Justice Programme, with a $5m bounty.

Fresh reports by Belgian authorities indicate that Mpiranya is hiding in Zimbabwe, and is reportedly operating businesses in Harare, on top of acting as mercenary for the ruling party ZANU-PF to silence the opposition.

We've got a lot of this sort of stuff around here...does it get much play in the Western Press?

NDPP

some but not enough..speaking of war criminals and Rwanda:

UN's Louise Arbour Under Fire Over Rwanda

http://www.truthout.org/article/uns-louise-arbour-under-fire-over-rwanda

Sun, 2010-02-21 09:59

#50

Gus Williams

My apologies had to take my very sick pup to the emergency animal clinic yesterday and spent much of the evening nursing her back to health....let me first dispel Michelle's rather starnge supposition that somehow this thread was a setup for my friends to do ...well...Im not sure what...but there is no truth to the allegation none whatsoever...though Michelle continue to use your imagination its very fertile.

Yes i am confused on this matter. Yes I always held that no matter what we should go after war criminals...then I began to question myself especially given the article I posted. I was conflicted...who hasn't been and why should this have become fodder for speculation that I was setting something up?

Skdadl, Thomas and others have helped focus me a bit...we can never lose sight of such crimes...we will never eradicate human evil doesn't mean we give up.

Sun, 2010-02-21 10:41

#51

Michelle

Heh. It's hilarious. In the opening post, you post an article by Bernie Farber about delays in getting Nazi war criminals out of Canada, and then claim you're oh so confused about whether or not it's worth going after Nazi war criminals in Canada. You just can't figure out what position to take on it! Gosh, can the babblers help? Does anyone agree that it might not be worth it?

Then a few posts later, you post your real opinion - that you can't imagine anyone taking such a position (that we should stop going after Nazi war criminals) and that all progressive folks should agree that Nazi war criminals should be deported. Which is the position you've held all along, and which shows up your opening post as completely insincere.

Unfortunately for you, none of the babblers took you up on your bait - that is, no one agreed with the position you were pretending to hold, or to be considering, in your opening post, that the campaign to deport Nazi war criminals in Canada should stop. But hey, there's a consolation prize - at least someone made a joke comparing the Libs and Cons to Nazis! Bring on the moaning, bring on the hand-wringing! O! The disgrace of it all!

And then when you're called on the troll job, the usual crowd does the injured innocence routine. "But I didn't mean...I just...how could you possibly think...oh, the hurt! The hurt! How could you think such a thing of us!"

It's a beautiful routine. It's like the babble equivalent of James Brown's cape routine in "Please Please Please Please..."

Please.

Is it time to give up on Nazi war criminals in Canada?

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