South Ossetia, Georgia and repercussions - Part 13
Thu, 2008-09-04 07:58
#1
N.Beltov
South Ossetia, Georgia and repercussions - Part 13
Thu, 2008-09-04 07:58
#2
N.Beltov
From the article in Der Speigel
quote:
In September, the UN Security Council will vote on whether to extend the ISAF mandate for the stabilization of Afghanistan. [b]A Russian Njet would eliminate the legal basis of the operation, and the German parliament, the Bundestag, could hardly extend its mission for 3,500 soldiers, let alone boost the number of troops to 4,500 as is currently planned.[/b] (Canada is spelled with a "C" - N.Beltov) Russia could make it more difficult to supply the troops in the Hindukush by banning NATO military aircraft from flying over its territory.
And now we have this:
quote:
Speaking at a news conference at NATO headquarters in Brussels late on Wednesday, Dmitri Rogozin said, [b]“Future cooperation [in Afghanistan] will depend on the alliance’s position in the Caucasus crisis. We are not satisfied either with NATO’s words or actions”,[/b] he said. Russia has already suspended all peacekeeping operations with NATO for at least six months and has frozen its participation in NATO’s Partnership for Peace program. Mr Rogozin said that Moscow so far had decided to continue supporting NATO operations in Afghanistan only because Russia was concerned by the worsening military and political situation in the Central Asian country accompanied by a continuing rise in extremism and illegal drug production. Earlier, Moscow agreed to allow non-lethal goods for NATO troops in Afghanistan to pass through Russian territory.
The article goes on to point out how the increasing heroin production is doing harm to Russia, increasing drug addiction in that country, and so on ...
quote:
Since the Taliban regime was overthrown in the 2001 US-led campaign, Afghanistan has become the world’s leading producer of heroin. Afghanistan’s opium production increased from 6,100 tons in 2006 to 8,200 tons in 2007, according to the UN. The narcotics trade has become an acute problem for Russia and the Central Asian republics due to a continual flow of illegal drugs from Afghanistan. “We do not see any success [in NATO operations], but, only a degradation of the situation in Afghanistan, and that is why Russia decided to maintain its cooperation with NATO in this area”, he said. NATO’s International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) has about 53,000 troops operating in the country under a UN mandate to help give security support to the Afghan government and stop the flow of drugs from the country. However, despite international efforts, the Taliban, ousted from power after a US-led military operation in 2001, have stepped up their activities in recent months. The radical Islamic movement vowed to increase suicide and other attacks in order to undermine the authority of the current Afghan administration.
(See the previous thread for a link to the story.)
All of this may have a profound effect on the public debate in other NATO countries - especially those with troops that are fighting and being killed in Afghanistan. And a country in the middle of an election, as Canada might be, a change in the status of the NATO mission could be politically e-x-p-l-o-s-i-v-e.
[url=http://www.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=13&t=004223]Here's the previous thread.[/url]
[ 12 September 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]
Thu, 2008-09-04 09:11
#3
N.Beltov
The interesting, but flawed, article by George Friedman [url=http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/medvedev_doctrine_and_american_strategy](The Medvedev Doctrine and American Strategy - Stratfor)[/url] has a very instructive sort of problem that should be pointed out. The author says, "Forgetting the details of who did what to whom,...".
In reply, another commentator on a Russian political discussion board says the following: [b]"In a piece that goes on about the Russian timing, to ignore the actual trigger event is pretty clever reasoning."[/b]
Clever, indeed. Or simply dishonest.
[ 04 September 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]
Thu, 2008-09-04 21:26
#4
So, since the EU decided it isn't going to do anything collectively about Russia's recent actions because it is worried about the consequences, doesn't that mean(ipso facto) that it is now within Russia's sphere of influence as outlined in the new Russion principles? Russia seems to have gained both political and economic influence. The last pillar is cultural. Should I invest in vodka stocks or samavar production?
Fri, 2008-09-05 04:39
#5
quote:
Should I invest in vodka stocks or samavar production?
The former is easy enough; I've tried to invest in Samovars without much luck, of course it'd be easier if I was into using the internet for financial transactions.
Vodka and Samovars aside though, Russia has an amazing culture and to this day maintains the top position in world literature; give me a choice between a book from any other culture or one by a Russian author and there is no contest [img]smile.gif" border="0[/img]
Fri, 2008-09-05 05:15
#6
N.Beltov
The Russians have a tradition, which still lives today in my view, of literary journalism of the highest caliber. Think of someone like Robert Fisk and you'll get the idea. More recent Sci Fi (or Speculative Fiction as they call it these days) is also good.
quote:
Stanley10: Should I invest in vodka stocks or samavar production?
Why not try investing in slightly used surplus US military equipment? The Russians must have a glut of it, what with the way the US proxy Georgian military ran away at the first sign of a fight, and it's probably "nearly new" or barely used.
There's also going to be a lot of reconstruction and cultural restoration of Tskhinvali, with all the destruction that took place in the Georgian attack, and that can't be done overnight.
Fri, 2008-09-05 07:12
#7
N.Beltov
[url=http://www.regnum.ru/english/1050769.html]Provisional list of victims in South Ossetia: Name, Cause of Death, Burial Place.[/url]
quote:
The commission comments that the list is provisional, since identification of bodies and sites of burial is very time-consuming: [b]many bodies are largely fragmented due to the nature of weapons used against residential areas; many people could not properly bury their relatives and neighbors during the continuing military action — they often buried them in their backyards or along roadsides.[/b] Thus only those whose identity was confirmed are in the list. [b]So far, there are 311 names with a short description of the cause of death and place of burial.[/b]
It's true. When people are blown to pieces, using cluster weapons for example, it's very hard to identify whose body parts are remaining. And Human Rights Watch won't recognize them in any case.
[url=http://www.regnum.ru/news/1050769.html]Here's the provisional list in Russian. Check back for updates.[/url]
[url=http://www.russiatoday.com/ossetianwar/news/29983]Here's the provisional list in English.[/url]
The list is too long to display here ... but it's too important NOT TO display.
quote:
1. Ataev Alan Muratovich, 1971 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.2. Kelehsaev Murzaba V. , 1944 D. O. B. Shot by a Georgian sniper. Buried in Tbet village.
3. Petoev Albert S., 1943 D. O. B. Killed by a BM-21 Grad rocket. Buried in Vladikavkaz.
4. Pliev Tamaz Sulikoevich, 1965 D. O. B. South Ossetian OMON police officer. Died during active duty. Buried in Vladikavkaz.
5. Melitoljan D., 1966 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.
6. Valiev Aleksandr A. , 1946 D. O. B. Killed by a Georgian sniper during evacuation on Zarskoi road.
7. Ostaev Tauret S., 1957 D. O. B. Killed by shrapnel from artillery fire. Buried in Itrapis village.
8. Bosikov Guram H. , 1953 D. O. B. Killed by air strike. Buried in Zguderskom cemetery.
9. Tadtaev Sergey Lvovich, 1972 D. O. B. Burned in own car after it was shot by a Georgian tank. Buried on grounds of School No. 5.
10. Kozaev Suliko A. , 1940 D. O. B. Killed by shrapnel from artillery fire. Buried in Itrapis village.
11. Kachmazov Vadim L. , 1970 D. O. B. Killed by artillery fire in Hetagurovo village.
12. Chovrebova Valya, 1940 D. O. B. Car hit by artillery fire. Buried in the courtyard of his apartment block.
13. Tedeev David Albertovich, 1988 D. O. B. Killed by a BM-21 Grad rocket. Buried in Vladikavkaz.
14. Gazaev Valery M., 1957 D. O. B. Died during artillery strike on Satikar village.
15. Bagaev Nodar Grigorevich, 1957 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.
16. Dzhioev Mitya, 45 y/o. Killed by shrapnel from artillery fire. Buried in Itrapis village.
17. Chovrebov Guram Ivanovich, 1948 D. O. B. Died during shelling of the city. Place of burial unknown.
18. Beteev Ivan Ilyich, 1956 D. O. B. Killed by a BM-21 Grad rocket. Buried in Vladikavkaz.
19. Hugaev Vasily Ivanovich, 1954 D. O. B. Killed by artillery fire in Hetagurovo village.
20. Bikoeva Liana Romanovna, 1957 D. O. B. Car hit by artillery fire. Buried in the courtyard of his apartment block.
21. Habalova Liana Romanovna, 1964, D. O. B. Hit by shrapnel from artillery shell. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.
22. Tadtaev Ruslan Zaurovich, 1960 D. O. B. Killed by artillery fire in Hetagurovo village.
23. Kumaritova Tamara Tuganovna, 1923 D. O. B. Hit by shrapnel from artillery shell. Buried in Tbet village.
24. Harebov Tamazi Georgievich, 1965 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.
25. Tuaev Radion Vasilevich, 1987 D. O. B. Killed by air strike. Buried in Zguderskom cemetery.
26. Basiladze Linana Konstantinovna, 1926 D. O. B. Killed by a explosive mine.
27. Kabulov Alan Albogovich, 1959 D. O. B. Killed by air strike. Buried in Zguderskom cemetery.
28. Habalov Tajmuraz Soltanovich, 1960 D. O. B. Killed by shrapnel from artillery fire. Buried in Itrapis village.
29. Doguzova Lida Bagratovna, 1934 D. O. B. Died during the conflict. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.
30. Haradzishvili Angelina Dmitrievna, 1974 D. O. B. Killed during shelling of the city. Buried in Tbet village.
31. Chekhoev Abesalom B., 1967 D. O. B. Died during shelling of the city. Place of burial unknown.
32. Elbakieva Dina, 2005 D. O. B. Killed during shelling of the city. Buried in Tbet village.
33. Kabisova Jelza Zelimhanovna, 1966 D. O. B. Killed by shelling in Hetagurovo village.
34. Kadzhaev Vadim Vasilevich, 1966 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.
35. Bestaev Vasily Gavrilovich, 1955 D. O. B. Shot by a Georgian sniper. Buried in Tbet village.
36. Gazzaev Genady Borisovich, 1982 D. O. B. Died during the conflict. Buried in a garden.
37. Sabanov Hamlet D., 1975 D. O. B. Killed by a tank shot. . Buried in courtyard of apartment block.
38. Kabulova Dusya Luarsabovna, 1927 D. O. B. Fatally wounded by shelling. . Buried in Zguderskom cemetery.
39. Chovrebov Alan Dmitrievich, 1987 D. O. B. Killed by a tank shot. . Buried in courtyard of apartment block.
40. Bestaev Samson Sosoevich, 1940 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.
41. Bestaeva Anna Antonovna, 1941 D. O. B. Killed when house was shelled. Buried in Vladikavkaz.
42. Kozaev Abe, 55 y/o. Died when house was struck by artillery. Buried in a garden.
43. Bestaeva Maria Georgievna, 1941 D. O. B. Killed when house was shelled. Buried in Vladikavkaz.
44. Gabaraev Georgy Sokratovich g. r. , s. 1954 D. O. B. Killed by artillery fire on Zarskoi road. Place of burial unknown.
45. Gabuev Givi Mihajlovich, 1929 D. O. B. Killed by artillery fire on Zarskoi road. Place of burial unknown.
46. Alborov Valter Oneginovich, 1974 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.
47. Bestaev Anzor Sedirovich, 1963 D. O. B. Killed by artillery fire in Hetagurovo village.
48. Dzhigkaeva Kristina Ruslanovna, 1997 D. O. B. Killed when tank shell exploded. Buried in Vladikavkaz.
49. Maldzigov Sevastia Stepanovich, 1965 D. O. B. Killed by a BM-21 Grad rocket. Buried in Vladikavkaz.
50. Kuluhov Soslan Andreevich, 1946 D. O. B. Died during shelling of the city. Place of burial unknown.
51. Kozaeva Maria, 76 y/o. Burned in home during shelling. Buried in a garden.
52. Gojaev Vitaly Vasilevich, 1990 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.
53. Mamiev Amiran Nikolaevich, 1941 D. O. B. Killed by artillery fire in Hetagurovo village.
54. Dzhioev Botaz Davidovich, 1952 D. O. B. Killed by a tank shot. . Buried in courtyard of apartment block.
55. Bagaeva Olesya Givievna, 1983 D. O. B. Killed by a BM-21 Grad rocket. Buried in Vladikavkaz.
56. Kozaev Valery Ivanovich, 1965 D. O. B. Killed by a BM-21 Grad rocket. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.
57. Bitarov Uruzmag, 1950 D. O. B. Killed by air strike. Buried in Zguderskom cemetery.
58. Hachirova Manana A. , 1955 D. O. B. Killed by a BM-21 Grad rocket. Buried in Vladikavkaz.
59. Dzhussoev Mair Zaurovich, 1971 D. O. B. Burned alive in car when Georgians covered it in petrol and set it alight. Buried in Nagutni.
60. Dzhussoev Aslan Mairovich, 15 y/o. Burned alive in car when Georgians covered it in petrol and set it alight. Buried in Nagutni.
61. Dzhussoeva Dina, 14 y/o. Burned alive in car when Georgians covered it in petrol and set it alight. Buried in Nagutni.
62. Bigulaev Viktor I. , 1952 D. O. B. Killed by a BM-21 Grad rocket. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.
63. Kozaev Valery Ivanovich, 1965 D. O. B. Killed by artillery fire on Zarskoi road. Place of burial unknown.
64. Koroeva Lamzira Zaurovna, 1968 D. O. B. Killed when house was shelled. Buried in Vladikavkaz.
65. Gagloev Tajmuraz Antonovich, 1952 D. O. B. Burned in car after it was shelled by Georgian troops Buried in a garden.
66. Hubezhov Tajmuraz Sh, 1959 D. O. B. Killed by air strike. Buried in Zguderskom cemetery.
67. Dzhioeva Palina Sh., 1955 D. O. B. Killed in shelling of Zarskoi road. Place of burial unknown.
68. Bikoev Efim Sergeevich, 1938 D. O. B. Shot by a Georgian sniper. Buried in Tbet village.
69. Kelekhsaeva Tasya Sobaevna, 1924 D. O. B. Killed by a BM-21 Grad rocket. Buried in Vladikavkaz.
70. Gagloev Azamat Tajmurazovich, 18 y/o. Burned in car after it was shelled by Georgian troops. Buried in a garden.
71. Gubaev Vladimir Georgievich, 1956 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.
72. Kachlaeva Zarina, 16 y/o. Killed when house was shelled. Buried in Vladikavkaz.
73. Bazzaev Vasily Vladimirovich, 1947 D. O. B. Burned in his own house when it was shelled. Buried in Vladikavkaz.
74. Dzhioev Renat Gergievich, 1980 D. O. B. Killed by shrapnel from artillery fire. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.
75. Tibilov Inal Revazovich, 1940 D. O. B. Killed by artillery fire on Zarskoi road. Place of burial unknown.
76. Gagieva Zarema Gajozovna, 1961 D. O. B. Car hit by artillery fire. Buried in the courtyard of his apartment block.
77. Dzhigkaeva Inga Sergeevna, 1966 D. O. B. Killed when house was shelled. Buried in Vladikavkaz.
78. Beteev Inal Aleksandrovich, 1955 D. O. B. Died from wounds sustained during artillery bombardment of Tskhinval. Buried in Tbet village.
79. Tedeev Valerian T., 1972 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.
80. Tedeeva Tamara Borisovna, 1947 D. O. B. Car hit by artillery fire. Buried in the courtyard of his apartment block.
81. Chovrebov Aslan Jurevich, 13. 01. 1985 D. O. B. Died during active duty. Buried in Vladikavkaz.
82. Dzeranov Auzbi Zaharevich, 1940 D. O. B. Killed by a BM-21 Grad rocket. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.
83. Habalov Batyrbeg Vasilevich, 1941 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.
84. Gobozov Merab Georgievich, 1960 D. O. B. Killed by shrapnel from artillery fire. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.
85. Tekhov Muharbeg Jakovlevich, 1977 D. O. B. Shot by a Georgian sniper. Buried in Zguderskom cemetery.
86. Shanazarova Albina Chorshanbievna, 14 y/o. Shot by a Georgian sniper during evacuation on Zarskoi road.
87. Kuduhov Ramazi I. , 1982 D. O. B. Killed by air strike. Buried in Zguderskom cemetery.
88. Kozaev Shota Nikolaevich, 1951 D. O. B. Killed by a BM-21 Grad rocket. Buried in Vladikavkaz.
89. Gagloev Murat Vasilevich, 1936 D. O. B. Shot by a Georgian sniper. Buried in Tbet village.
90. Chovrebova Malvina Borisovna, 1960 D. O. B. Pregnant. Died of a Georgian shell explosion. Buried in a garden.
91. Kokoev Vitalik Vardanovich, 1950 D. O. B. Died during shelling of the city. Place of burial unknown.
92. Tedeev Anatolij Tengizovich, 1960 D. O. B. Shot by a Georgian sniper. Buried in Tbet village.
93. Alborov Otar Gerasimovich, 1940 D. O. B. Killed by shrapnel from artillery fire. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.
94. Dzhatieva Zalina H. , 1958 D. O. B. Killed when house was shelled. Buried in Vladikavkaz.
95. Valieva Madina Dzambolatovna, 01. 01. 1988 D. O. B. Died from Georgian sniper bullet. . Body had been hidden. Found by ‘Vostok Battalion’ troops. Buried in Djava.
96. Siukaev Anatolij A. , 1958 D. O. B. Killed by artillery fire on Zarskoi road. Place of burial unknown.
97. Tedeev Vasily Muhtarovich, 1956 D. O. B. Killed by shrapnel from artillery fire. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.
98. Kisiev Ibragim Felikosvich. Killed by artillery fire in Hetagurovo village.
99. Doguzov Leonid Nikolaevich. Died during artillery strike on Satikar village.
100. Parastaev Aleksandr Aronovich, 1958 D. O. B. Killed by shrapnel from artillery fire. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.
101. Valiev Ruslan Vladimirovich, 1955 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.
102. Bestaev Ushang Mihajlovich, 1954 D. O. B. Killed when a car was shelled. Buried outside his house.
103. Gabaraeva Lyubov Georgievna, 1930 D. O. B. Car hit by artillery fire. Buried in the courtyard of his apartment block.
104. Gazaev Yury Konstantinovich, 1957 D. O. B. Shot by a Georgian sniper. Buried in Tbet village.
105. Doguzov Guram Konstantinovich, 1945 D. O. B. Killed by a Georgian sniper during evacuation on Zarskoi road. .
106. Loloev Otar Garsevanovich. Died in artillery strike on Dmenis village.
107. Hatdziev Suliko Utievich. Died in artillery strike on Dmenis village.
108. Cahilov Aslan Vladimirovich, 1960 D. O. B. Killed by air strike. Buried in Zguderskom cemetery.
109. Hubaev Valik Mihajlovich, 1950 D. O. B. Killed by a BM-21 Grad rocket. Buried in Vladikavkaz.
110. Hubaev Amiran Vardenovich, 1937 D. O. B. Died during shelling of the city. Place of burial unknown.
111. Beteev Genady Borisovich, 1967 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.
112. Gigolaev Boris Nestorovich, 1937 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.
113. Nanieva Nina Ivanovna, 1956 D. O. B. Hit by shrapnel from artillery shell. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.
114. Harebov Botaz Zaurovich, 1957 D. O. B. Killed by air strike. Buried in Zguderskom cemetery.
115. Alborov Oleg Zaurovich, 1955 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.
116. Valiev Valery Pavlovich, 1961 D. O. B. Killed by a BM-21 Grad rocket. Buried in Vladikavkaz.
117. Dzasohov Vladimir Dzandorovich, 1950 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.
118. Maldzigov Gija Vladimirovich. Killed by artillery fire in Hetagurovo village.
119. Dzhioev Gergiej Alekseevich, 1943 D. O. B. Killed by shrapnel from artillery fire. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.
120. Tadtaev Robert Sergeevich, 1963 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.
121. Kabisov Slavik Sardionovich, 1970 D. O. B. Died during shelling of the city. Place of burial unknown.
122. Maldzigova Evgenija Nikolaevna, 1927 D. O. B. Killed by a BM-21 Grad rocket. Buried in Vladikavkaz.
123. Dzhabiev Hamlet Georgievich, 1974 D. O. B. Killed by shrapnel from artillery fire. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.
124. Chertkoev Inal Nikolaevich, 1957 D. O. B. Shot by a Georgian sniper. Buried in Tbet village.
125. Bestaev Tengiz Nikolaevich, 1950 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.
126. Harebov Dmitry Dmitrievich, 1952 D. O. B. Shot by a Georgian sniper. Buried in Tbet village.
127. Tedeev Abe, 35 y/o. Killed during the conflict. Buried in Vladikavkaz.
128. Tedeev Vladimir Romanovich, 1948 D. O. B. Killed by shrapnel from artillery fire. Buried in the village of Kornis.
129. Dzhioev Radion Zurabovich, 1984 D. O. B. Killed by shrapnel from artillery fire. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.
130. Bitiev Kazbek Borisovich, 1955 D. O. B. Killed by shrapnel from artillery fire. Buried in the village of Kornis.
131. Dzhagaev Radik Guramovich, 1983 D. O. B. Killed by shrapnel from artillery fire. Buried in the village of Kornis.
132. Tigiev Jeduard Kazbekovich, 1958 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.
133. Dzhagaev Dzhumber Parmenovich, 1953 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.
134. Nartikoev David Borisovich, 1980 D. O. B. Died while guarding an entrance to the city. Buried in Djava.
135. Hubezhov Aleksandr Dmitrievich, 1952 D. O. B. Killed by a BM-21 Grad rocket. Buried in Vladikavkaz.
136. Dzhioev Malhaz Aleksandrovich, 1960 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.
137. Dzhabiev Shaliko Gabaevich, 1957 D. O. B. Killed by shrapnel from artillery fire. Buried in the village of Kornis.
138. Kozaev Alan Pavlovich, 1967 D. O. B. Died during shelling of the city. Place of burial unknown.
139. Cibirov Jemzar Rezoevich, 1967 D. O. B. Killed by shrapnel from artillery fire. Buried in Dmenis village.
140. Chovrebov Hazbi Shalvovich, 1955 D. O. B. Killed by a BM-21 Grad rocket. Buried in Vladikavkaz.
141. Alborov Leonid Zarbegovich, 1965 D. O. B. Killed by shrapnel from artillery fire. Buried in Dmenis village.
142. Dudaev Alan Andreevich, 1962 D. O. B. Killed by shrapnel from artillery fire. Buried in Dmenis village.
143. Kotolov Soltan Ilyich, 1953 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.
144. Kulumbegov Hsar Grigorevich, 1945 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.
145. Hugaev Sergey Sikoevich, 1940 D. O. B. Killed by air strike. Buried in Zguderskom cemetery.
146. Bagaev Oleg Valikoevich, 1964 D. O. B. Died during shelling of the city. Place of burial unknown.
147. Petoeva Ruzana Mihajlovna, 1916 D. O. B. Killed by shelling in Hetagurovo village.
148. Gazaev Ibragim Hazbievich, 1990 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.
149. Bestaev Aleksey Sergeevich, 1952 D. O. B. Killed by air strike. Buried in Zguderskom cemetery.
150. Apaev Arsen Borisovich, 1964 D. O. B. Shot by a Georgian sniper. Buried in Tbet village.
151. Chekhoev Vladimir Vardanovich, 1960 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.
152. Dzhabieva Zemfira Chermenovna, 1952 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.
153. Sanakoev Jelbrus Kazbekovich, 1962 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.
154. Bestaev Pavel Grigorevich, 1964 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.
155. Kodalaev Guram Ilyich, 1952 D. O. B. Killed by air strike. Buried in Zguderskom cemetery.
156. Chovrebov Aleksey Vladimirovich, 1980 D. O. B. Killed by a BM-21 Grad rocket. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.
157. Sanakoev Petja Efimovich, 1940 D. O. B. Killed by a Georgian sniper during evacuation on Zarskoi road. .
158. Alborova Zalina Vladimirovna, 1963 D. O. B. Car hit by artillery fire. Buried in the courtyard of his apartment block.
159. Arsoev Sadul Severjanovich, 1950 D. O. B. Died during shelling of the city. Place of burial unknown.
160. Kelehsaev Roland Vissarionovich, 1960 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.
161. Sabanov David Grigorevich, 1947 D. O. B. Killed by a BM-21 Grad rocket. Buried in Vladikavkaz.
162. Dudaev Slavik Kazbekovich. Shot by a Georgian sniper. Buried in Tbet village.
163. Dzhioev Konstantin Zaurovich, 1954 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.
164. Bestaev Valery Sergeevich, 1970 D. O. B. Shot by a Georgian sniper. Buried in Tbet village.
165. Kumaritov Valery Kuzmich, 1953 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.
166. Tadtaev Dmitry Vjacheslavovich, 1983 D. O. B. Killed by a BM-21 Grad rocket. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.
167. Habalov Givi Vasilevich, 1961 D. O. B. Killed by a BM-21 Grad rocket. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.
168. Harebaty Zaur Vladimirovich, 1956 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.
169. Chandieva Valentina Sergeevna, 1976 D. O. B. Killed when house was shelled. Buried in Vladikavkaz.
170. Dzhioev Aleksey Sergeevich, 1950 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.
171. Kozaev Jelbrus (Muharbeg) Rutenovich, 1957 D. O. B. Hit by air strike on Tbet village. Buried in Zguderskom cemetery.
172. Gasseev Genady Nikolaevich, 1961 D. O. B. Killed by air strike. Buried in Zguderskom cemetery.
173. Zasseev Ruslan Grigorevich, 1956 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.
174. Tibilov Murat Ivanovich, 1959 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.
175. Tibilov Ivan Muratovich, 1941 D. O. B. Died during shelling of the city. Place of burial unknown.
176. Tibilov Vitaly Dzhumberovich, 1987 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.
177. Ikaev Valery Vladimirovich, 1958 D. O. B. Killed by a Georgian sniper during evacuation on Zarskoi road. .
178. Kabulov Givi Ivanovich, 1953 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.
179. Tedeev Volodja Matveevich, 1958 D. O. B. Hit by air strike on Tbet village. Buried in Jerco village.
180. Bolotaev Oleg Filippovich, 1957 D. O. B. Killed by a Georgian sniper during evacuation on Zarskoi road. .
181. Dzhioev Totyrbeg Ivanovich, 1964 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.
182. Lalieva Valentina Sergeevna, 1940 D. O. B. Shot by a Georgian sniper during evacuation on Zarskoi road.
183. Puhaty Jedik Grigorevich, 1953 D. O. B. Killed when a car was shelled hlebovoza. Buried outside his house.
184. Dzhioev Genady Muratovich, 1948 D. O. B. Killed by air strike. Buried in Zguderskom cemetery.
185. Kochiev Jedik Sergeevich, 1961 D. O. B. Died during shelling of the city. Place of burial unknown.
186. Gagloev Hamlet G. , 1972 D. O. B. Killed by a BM-21 Grad rocket. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.
187. Ikoty Zahar (Aleksandr) Borisovich, 1947 D. O. B. Killed when a car was shelled. Buried outside his house.
188. Adzhiev Vadim Rutenovich, 1981 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.
189. Lalieva Laida M. , 1979 D. O. B. Fatally wounded by shelling. Buried in Zguderskom cemetery.
190. Kokoev Dzhemal Revazovich, 1955 D. O. B. Killed when a car was shelled. Buried outside his house.
191. Kozaev Zelim Tutievich, 1975 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.
192. Bjazrov Ludwig Hazbievich, 1970 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.
193. Kozaev Lev Aleksandrovich, 1987 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.
194. Kochiev Pavel Grigorevich, 1949 D. O. B. Killed by a Georgian sniper during evacuation on Zarskoi road. .
195. Dzhioev Gocha Georgievich, 1965 D. O. B. Shot by a Georgian sniper. Buried in Dmenis village.
196. Pliev Aleksandr Sergeevich, 1960 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.
197. Bestaev Pavel Vardanovich, 1949 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.
198. Gussalov Vasily Karamanovich, 1959 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.
199. Gagiev Alik Pavlovich, 1976 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.
200. Gassiev Barsag Zaharovich, 1985 D. O. B. Killed by a tank shot. . Buried in courtyard of apartment block.
201. Vazagov Gajoz Davidovich, 1942 D. O. B. Shot by a Georgian sniper. Buried in Dmenis village.
202. Kochiev Acamaz Anatolevich, 1978 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.
203. Dzhioev Muhar Sergeevich, 1950 D. O. B. Killed by a BM-21 Grad rocket. Buried in Vladikavkaz.
204. Gussalov Nikolay Vladimirovich, 1964 D. O. B. Killed in the conflict. Buried in a garden.
205. Kochiev Murat Davidovich, 1959 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.
206. Gabaraev Fedor Georgievich, 1951 D. O. B. Killed when a car was shelled. Buried outside his house.
207. Dzoloev Nodar Nikolaevich, 1965 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.
208. Guzzitaev Rafik Moiseevich, 1957 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.
209. Kadzhaeva Jelina Kazbekovna, 1986 D. O. B. Wounded while the city was shelled. Buried alive in her house. Buried in Vladikavkaz.
210. Kadzhaev Zelim Zaurovich, 1965 D. O. B. Killed by a tank shot. . Buried in courtyard of apartment block.
211. Tebloev Chermen Petrovich, 1951 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.
212. Tuaev Alan Ilyich, 1965 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.
213. Gabuev Amzor Sosikoevich, 1940 D. O. B. Died during shelling of the city. Place of burial unknown.
214. Gagloeva Larisa Valikoevna, 1974 D. O. B. Killed by a BM-21 Grad rocket. Buried in Vladikavkaz.
215. Loloev Slavik Sulikoevich, 1954 D. O. B. Died during shelling of the city. Place of burial unknown.
216. Gagloeva Fatima Gavrilovna, 1948 D. O. B. Fatally wounded by shelling. . Buried in Zguderskom cemetery.
217. Tedeev Tolik Ivanovich, 1953 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.
218. Ostaev Shalva Jeduardovich, 1973 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.
219. Sanakoeva Aza Aleksandrovna, 1948 D. O. B. Killed when house was shelled. Buried in Vladikavkaz.
220. Tedeev Ibragim Gazanovaich, 1965 D. O. B. Killed in the conflict. Buried in Tbet village.
221. Tuaev Vasily Sergeevich, 1964 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.
222. Alborov Vladimir Gersanovich, 1948 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.
223. Valiev Luarsab Garitaevich, 1954 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.
224. Bibilova Neli Alekseevna, 1938 D. O. B. Car hit by artillery fire. Buried in the courtyard of his apartment block.
225. Kadzhaev Tajmuraz Fedorovich, 1964 D. O. B. Died during shelling of the city. Place of burial unknown.
226. Bikoev Anatolij Dmitrievich, 1952 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.
227. Gazzaev Vladik Albertovich, 1972 D. O. B. Killed in the conflict. Buried in a garden.
228. Alborova Natela Zaurovna, 1956 D. O. B. Killed by a BM-21 Grad rocket. Buried in Vladikavkaz.
229. Hubaev Givi Davidovich, 1962 D. O. B. Shot by a Georgian sniper. Buried in Dmenis village.
230. Dzhioev Azamat Gamatovich, 1993 D. O. B. Died during shelling of the city. Place of burial unknown.
231. Lalieva Irina Borisovna, 1966 D. O. B. Fatally wounded by shelling. . Buried in Zguderskom cemetery.
232. Tedeev Pavel Ivanovich, 1951 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.
233. Muldarov Gajoz Grigorevich, 1972 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.
234. Chovrebov Vladimir Inalovich, 1956 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.
235. Guzzitaev Tamerlan Jasonovich, 1968 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.
236. Bestaev Nikolay Gavrilovich, 1939 D. O. B. Killed by artillery fire on Zarskoi road. Place of burial unknown.
237. Dzhagaeva Liza Sandroevna, 1945 D. O. B. Fatally wounded by shelling. . Buried in Zguderskom cemetery.
238. Ikoeva Roza Viktorovna, 1936 D. O. B. Killed during shelling of the city. Buried in Tbet village.
239. Goginov Robert Tengizovich, 1955 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.
240. Tasoev Botaz Georgievich, 1946 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.
241. Kelehsaev Zahar Sardionovich, 1940 D. O. B. Killed by a BM-21 Grad rocket. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.
242. Bagaev Feliks Jasonovich, 1955 D. O. B. Killed by a tank shot. . Buried in courtyard of apartment block.
243. Dzhioev Jelbrus Semenovich, 1973 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.
244. Kadzhaev Soslan Kavkazovich, 1978 D. O. B. Killed by a BM-21 Grad rocket. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.
245. Guzitaev Zviad Nikolaevich,1974 . D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.
246. Sabanov Hvicha Mihajlovich,1961 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.
247. Gucaev Valery Tasolovich, 1949 D. O. B. Killed by artillery fire on Zarskoi road. Place of burial unknown.
248. Kachmazova Lena, 56 y/o. Killed by a BM-21 Grad rocket. Buried in Vladikavkaz.
249. Besaev Alan Anatolevich, 1986 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.
250. Dzhidzhoev Mitya Amiranovich, 1954 D. O. B. Killed when a car was shelled. Buried outside his house.
251. Sanakoev Vladimir Kubadievich, 1956 D. O. B. Killed when a car was shelled. Buried outside his house.
252. Sabanov Vasily Fedorovich, 1955 D. O. B. Killed by a BM-21 Grad rocket. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.
253. Kachmazova Zaira, 58 y/o. Killed by a BM-21 Grad rocket. Buried in Vladikavkaz.
254. Gabaraev Vladimir Dmitrievich, 1972 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.
255. Gigolaev Vadim Georgievich, 1963 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.
256. Kulumbegov Radik Georgievich, 1966 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.
257. Bekoev Alan Tuzarovich, 1974 D. O. B. Killed by a BM-21 Grad rocket. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.
258. Abaeva Manana Georgievna, 1966 D. O. B. Fatally wounded by shelling. . Buried in Zguderskom cemetery.
259. Dzagoev Nodar Grigorevich, 1959 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.
260. Dzigoev Alan Zurabovich, 1974 D. O. B. Killed by a BM-21 Grad rocket. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.
261. Abaeva Lejla (Zhuzhu) Pavlovna. Killed by a BM-21 Grad rocket. Buried in a courtyard between apartment blocks.
262. Dzhioev Navroz Muhtarovich, 1953 D. O. B. Hit by shelling in Tbet village. Place of burial unknown.
263. Dzigoev Albert Shotaevich, 1982 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.
264. Babaev Omar Lentoevich, 1956 D. O. B. Killed by a BM-21 Grad rocket. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.
265. Asaev Valery Arshakovich, 1955 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.
266. Kabulov Acamaz Tajmurazovich, 1988 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.
267. Dzhioev Maharbek Chakoevich, 1946 D. O. B. Killed by a tank shot. . Buried in courtyard of apartment block.
268. Bestaev Hazbi Dmitrievich, 1933 D. O. B. Killed when a tank shot his apartment building. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.
269. Dzhioev Almurat Aleksandrovich, 1976 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.
270. Bagaeva Svetlana Georgievna, 1975 D. O. B. Car hit by artillery fire. Buried in the courtyard of his apartment block.
271. Zasseev Anatolij Filippovich, 1948 D. O. B. Hit by shelling in Tbet village. Place of burial unknown.
272. Kochieva Madina Chermenovna, 1963 D. O. B. Killed when house was shelled. Buried in Vladikavkaz.
273. Kumaritov Lev Hristoforovich, 1962 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.
274. Tadtaev Georgy Pavlovich, 1986, D. O. B. Killed when a tank shot his apartment building. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.
275. Gagloev Jedik Nikolaevich, 1954 D. O. B. Car hit by Georgian tank fire in Tbet village. Sgorel. Buried in Vladikavkaz.
276. Dzebisov Vladimir Ilyich, 1950 D. O. B. Killed by artillery fire on Zarskoi road. Place of burial unknown.
277. Gugkaev Alan Alanovich, 1977 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.
278. Valiev Mihail Kuzmich, 1958 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.
279. Tibilova Zalina Nikolaevna, 1956 D. O. B. Burned. Car was hit by a Georgian tank shell in Tbet village. Buried in Vladikavkaz.
280. Kokoev Leva Jashaevich, 1951 D. O. B. Killed by artillery fire on Zarskoi road. Place of burial unknown.
281. Gasseev Vitaly Nikolaevich, 1963 D. O. B. Killed by artillery fire on Zarskoi road. Place of burial unknown.
282. Beteev Auzbi Borisovich, 1972 D. O. B. Killed by artillery fire on Zarskoi road. Place of burial unknown.
283. Kadzhaeva Liana Sergeevna, 1960 D. O. B. Burned. Car was hit by a Georgian tank shell in Tbet village. Buried in Zguderskom cemetery.
284. Tekhov Vladimir Alekseevich, 1975 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.
285. Bigulaev Zaurbeg Davidovich, 1955 D. O. B. Hit by shelling in Tbet village.
286. Gubiev Jakov, 1930 D. O. B. Killed by Georgian sniper fire. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.
287. Muldarov Zelim Efimovich, 1964 D. O. B. Killed by artillery fire on Zarskoi road. Place of burial unknown.
288. Valiev Yury Vladimirovich, 1956 D. O. B. Killed by artillery fire on Zarskoi road. Place of burial unknown.
289. Gagiev Valery Vladimirovich, 1978 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.
290. Chovrebov Sevastjan V. , 1937 D. O. B. Hit by shelling in Tbet village.
291. Kumaritova Madina A. , 1938 D. O. B. Fatally wounded by shelling. . Buried in Zguderskom cemetery.
292. Chibirov Vilen Valikoevich, 1975, D. O. B. Killed in the conflict. Buried in Vladikavkaz.
293. Kachmazov Igor Jurevich, 1963 D. O. B. Killed by artillery fire on Zarskoi road. Place of burial unknown.
294. Karkusov Feliks V. , 1940 D. O. B. Hit by shelling in Tbet village.
295. Gagiev Givi Grigorevich, 1942 D. O. B. Killed by artillery fire on Zarskoi road. Place of burial unknown.
296. Magkoeva Aza Pavlovna, 1949 D. O. B. Killed when house was shelled. Buried in Vladikavkaz.
297. Dzhabiev Vladimir Iosifovich, 1953 D. O. B. Killed by a tank shot. . Buried in courtyard of apartment block.
298. Kulumbegov Georgy Anatolevich, 1976 D. O. B. Killed in the conflict. Buried in Zguderskom cemetery.
299. Kisieva Dunja Iraklievna, 1940 D. O. B. Killed in shelling of Zarskoi road. Place of burial unknown.
300. Hubaev Murat Arsenovich, 1963 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.
301. Kotaev Soslan Sadulovich, 1948 D. O. B. Killed by a tank shot. . Buried in courtyard of apartment block.
302. Bibilov Alan Georgievich, 1960 D. O. B. Killed in the conflict. Buried in Bibyltykau village.
303. Gabaraev Genady Matveevich, 1951 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.
304. Dzhigkaeva Lidija Vasilevna, 1947 D. O. B. Killed when house was shelled. Buried in Vladikavkaz.
305. Kuduhov Vsevolod Ilyich, 1947 D. O. B. Shot by a Georgian sniper. Buried in Dmenis village.
306. Bazzaeva Zhenja Gavrilovna, 1940 D. O. B. Killed in shelling of Zarskoi road. Place of burial unknown.
307. Dzhabiev Albert Vasilevich, 1976 D. O. B. Killed in the conflict. Buried in Rustau village.
308. Parastaev Lev Pavlovich, 1949 D. O. B. Killed when a car was shelled. Buried outside his house.
309. Kabisov Vasily Sosoevich, 1936 D. O. B. Killed by artillery fire on Zarskoi road. Place of burial unknown.
310. Bolataeva Zemfira Aleksandrovna, 1941 D. O. B. Fatally wounded by shelling. . Buried in Zguderskom cemetery.
311. Dzahov Valery Borisovich, 1987 D. O. B. Shot by a Georgian sniper during the conflict. . Buried in Tbet village.
Eduard Kokoity, the President of South Ossetia: "I wonder how much more blood they want to see shed if we are already so few. [b]How many more people do Georgian soldiers have to kill for the western leaders to be able to call it genocide?[/b]"
[ 05 September 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]
Fri, 2008-09-05 08:02
#8
This list tells some terrible stories of the Gerogian crimes, like this incident:
quote:
59. Dzhussoev Mair Zaurovich, 1971 D. O. B. Burned alive in car when Georgians covered it in petrol and set it alight. Buried in Nagutni.60. Dzhussoev Aslan Mairovich, 15 y/o. Burned alive in car when Georgians covered it in petrol and set it alight. Buried in Nagutni.
61. Dzhussoeva Dina, 14 y/o. Burned alive in car when Georgians covered it in petrol and set it alight. Buried in Nagutni.
Fri, 2008-09-05 08:16
#9
N.Beltov
Yes, and look at the age of the victims. I don't see what threat a 14-year old school girl is to Georgia, or what merits incinerating her in a car along with her mum and sibling.
A thousand years will pass and the Ossetians will not forget what happened, nor will they forget who rescued them from complete extermination.
I see that the first country, other than Russia, has formally recognized South Ossetia. Daniel Ortega's Nicaraguan government was the first. Others will follow.
Fri, 2008-09-05 08:31
#10
quote:
Daniel Ortega's Nicaraguan government was the first. Others will follow.
That is a good sign, I haven't even noticed that in the news yet, though I've been busy with work lately... If Ortega has recognized S Ossetia the rest of ALBA is likely to follow suit; this despite their concerns over US backed "elite-separation" movements around South America these days... Do you have a link for Ortega's announcement Beltov, to post here?
Fri, 2008-09-05 08:35
#11
N.Beltov
[url=http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/09/04/america/georgia.php]Here's the International Herald Tribune on the Nicaraguan recognition of South Ossetia.[/url]
Somewhere, Augusto Cйsar Sandino is smiling.
Fri, 2008-09-05 09:22
#12
Thanks. Also in that article (though quite unrelated to the thread topic or the story being covered in the article!):
quote:
Cuba is continuing to send signals that Havana wants to strengthen its relationship with Moscow. State-run media on Thursday highlighted the arrival of Russian aid following Hurricane Gustav.State television showed two huge cargo planes arriving at the Josй Martн airport, which serves Havana, at the top of its morning news broadcast. Cuban soldiers were seen unloading supplies. Such scenes have not been seen in Cuba since the Soviet Union collapsed.
Interesting news...
Fri, 2008-09-05 09:38
#13
N.Beltov
[url=http://www.moonofalabama.org/2008/09/followup-on-hrw.html]HRW's False Cluster Bomb Accusations[/url]
quote:
Human Rights Watch continues to spread, without presenting convincing proof, accusations of use of cluster bombs by the Russian Federation in the conflict with Georgia. HRW published two reports which supposedly show evidence of such use. As argued and documented here, that evidence does not hold up.HRW has now issued a 'clarification', and admits that the supposed evidence in one of the two reports is false.
F***ing liars.
Sat, 2008-09-06 17:18
#14
N.Beltov
The EU met and barely held together a facade of unity. The French President will be off to Moscow to talk tough with the Russians. Here is one response.
quote:
Peter Lavalle of Russia Today: The Russian side wants to know if the EU’s wonderful generosity with humanitarian and reconstruction aid also applies to South Ossetia – the targeted victim of Saakashvili aggression. And what about American and NATO aid? Why do military ships transport civilian aid? Why is the US and NATO using provocative means if their goals are merely humanitarian? Why is Dick Cheney kicking up dust when the EU talks the talk of moderation? Russia also will ask who will be the go-between for Moscow and Tbilisi. Moscow rightfully will not utter even a word directly to Saakashvili. I can see blank expressions from the great and proud EU delegation!
Lavalle figures the EU representative may get an ugly surprise on Monday.
quote:
All of this reminds me of a song by the Boomtown Rats: “I don’t like Mondays” If the EU miscalculates – and it is set to – this song might be remembered for a completely different reason.
[url=http://www.russiatoday.com/employee/27]EU: “I don’t like Mondays”[/url]
[ 06 September 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]
Sat, 2008-09-06 17:24
#15
laine lowe
Thanks for all the links NB. Our media has been pathetic in its coverage of this conflict.
I'm not surprised that HRW would come out in support of Georgia as victim. They are far from impartial.
Sat, 2008-09-06 17:36
#16
N.Beltov
If Saakashvili is successfully prosecuted for what happened in Tskhinvali, even a little, then HRW is going to look pretty stupid and one-sided in its coverage. The claims of Russian use of cluster weapons have been debunked. The number of dead in Ossetia claimed by HRW is looking like an ugly whitewash of the Georgian attack.
When western journalists start coming back from Tskhinvali, and telling their stories, I wonder if all this government aid from western countries, as Peter Lavalle points out, will also be forthcoming for the victims in Tskhinvali? And if not, why not?
Ralph Nader, the Green candidate in the USA for President, has come out and clearly blamed the US government for funding the huge military build-up in Georgia as a/the main factor in the Ossetian War.
The Abkhazians, while grateful to Russia for preventing a war, have no desire to join that country. The differences between the Ossetians and Abkhazians are instructive for outside observers.
Sun, 2008-09-07 08:58
#17
"US military trained Georgian commandos
By Charles Clover in Moscow and Demetri Sevastopulo in Washington
Published: September 5 2008 18:49 | Last updated: September 5 2008 18:49
The US military provided combat training to 80 Georgian special forces commandos only months prior to Georgia’s army assault in South Ossetia in August.
The revelation, based on recruitment documents and interviews with US military trainers obtained by the Financial Times, could add fuel to accusations by Vladimir Putin, Russian prime minister, last month that the US had “orchestrated” the war in the Georgian enclave..."
Financial Times
[ 07 September 2008: Message edited by: contrarianna ]
Sun, 2008-09-07 12:11
#18
N.Beltov
Here's a [url=http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/bdffd9a6-7b71-11dd-b839-000077b07658.html]link [/url]to the story about the US military training that the Georgian commandos received just before the attack on South Ossetia. The story appeared in the Financial Times.
quote:
The confirmation that the United States trained Georgia's special forces troops adds extra weight to Prime Minister Vladimir Putin's suggestion that American citizens were directly involved in the South Ossetian conflict.Putin said in an interview with CNN in August: “We have serious reasons to believe that American citizens were right at the heart of the military action. This would have implications for American domestic policy. If this is confirmed, we will have grounds to suspect that somebody in the U.S. has created this conflict to aggravate the situation and create a competitive advantage for one of the presidential candidates”.
On the same day that Putin made the statement the Russian Defence Ministry announced that a passport belonging to a Texan resident was found in a house which had been occupied by Georgian commandos.
[url=http://www.russiatoday.com/news/news/30065]Putin's remarks[/url]
[img]http://www.russiatoday.com/media/news/1/48b72d1536b23.jpeg[/img]
![http://www.russiatoday.com/media/news/1/48b72d1536b23.jpeg[/img]](http://www.russiatoday.com/media/news/1/48b72d1536b23.jpeg[/img]){kind=link}
[url=http://www.russiatoday.com/news/news/29636]Who is Michael Lee White and what was he doing in South Ossetia?!![/url]
Sun, 2008-09-07 17:00
#19
Mr Sarcozy(sic) is heading to Moscow tomorrow to find out what the French and Russian words mean on the vague cease-fire agreement which he signed.
For support, he's taking along a Spanish fellow, a Portuguese lawyer, and some members of the Academie Francaise(just kidding). [img]rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img]
Actually, I hope they rewrite the whole bloody agreement so that it's clear to everyone and some real peacekeepers can get in there "tout de suite".
Sun, 2008-09-07 18:02
#20
N.Beltov
quote:
Stanley10:Mr Sarcozy(sic) is heading to Moscow tomorrow to find out what the French and Russian words mean on the vague cease-fire agreement which he signed.
Considering that French President Sarcozy was one of the authors of the 6-point "vague agreement", one would think that he would have some understanding of what he signed. Ha ha. OTOH, judging by the conduct of his own UN Ambassador - who pretended not to understand the agreement that his own President authored and signed and took an agnostic position on the agreement - anything is possible.
quote:
Actually, I hope they rewrite the whole bloody agreement so that it's clear to everyone and some real peacekeepers can get in there "tout de suite".
The Russians were "real peacekeepers" ... right up to the point when they were killed by the Georgian troops who probably didn't want any witnesses to their atrocities in Tskhinvali. A few things are crystal clear on the Russian side: they will insist on a role for the Ossetians and Abkhazians (the UN Security Council, or certain of its NATO members anyway, REFUSED to even listen to the victims of the Georgian aggression); the latter will reject, probably in perpetuity, any role whatsoever of Georgian "peacekeepers" in policing the border between Ossetia and Georgia; they (the Russians) will insist on establishing an intermediary between themselves and the Georgian Saakashvili militarist regime since they consider Saakashvili a political corpse and refuse to meet directly with someone they consider a War Criminal; finally, the Russians may very well ask when the NATO countries will start to provide humanitarian assistance to the victims of the Georgian aggression in South Ossetia.
That's a start, anyway. If the French, on behalf of the EU, NATO, or themselves, decide to start barking orders as though nothing has changed then they will probably find themselves humming the old Boomtown Rats song "I don't like Mondays".
Sun, 2008-09-07 21:09
#21
Actually, I was wondering about the authorship of the document as it was presented in the New York Times(pdf). In the French version with the hand written additions in French script, President Sarkozy's name is spelled "Sarcozy". Why would he, or any of the talent involved, misspell his name. Hence, I wrote "Sarcozy(sic)" above. Perhaps you can answer this Beltov, does the change from K to C mean anything to you?
It could be a simple mistake by a member of Sarkozy's entourage? I believe the Russians are saying that there appear to be two different versions of the document, each signed by its respective government. Regardless, it sounds like a totally botched job.
Perhaps the author is wearing pilliwinks in the Bastille or drinking лучший vodka in Moscow. [img]smile.gif" border="0[/img]
The primary interest of real peacekeepers is to keep the peace from an impartial advantage. They are(should be) respected by both sides because of this. The Russians have not been impartial, before or after, in this matter due to their strategic interests.
Sun, 2008-09-07 22:25
#22
N.Beltov
quote:
Stanley10: ... does the change from K to C mean anything to you?
The French have been playing footsie already on this agreement. The French UN Ambassador refused to support what his own President had signed, or something like that. The 6-point agreeement is not, in any case, the only applicable document. There are agreements from 1992 and so on that also apply. And then there are the facts on the ground.
quote:
The Russians have not been impartial, before or after, in this matter due to their strategic interests.
First I've heard this. The two sides agreed to Russian peacekeepers in the period leading up to the attack on South Ossetia. Furthermore, the voluntary retreat from Georgia by the Russian troops was followed by placing Russian peacekeepers in areas to ensure that another attack, similar to the previous one, could not be launched by the Georgians. Tomorrow should be interesting, that's for sure.
Sun, 2008-09-07 22:31
#23
From RIA Novosti:
quote:
Russian, French presidents to hold talks on Georgia in Moscow
10:14 | 08/ 09/ 2008MOSCOW, September 8 (RIA Novosti) - The presidents of Russia and France will hold a meeting in Moscow on Monday to discuss developments in the Caucasus following the recent South Ossetia conflict.
Ahead of the French president's visit, Russian Foreign Ministry spokesman Andrei Nesterenko said "Nicolas Sarkozy would like to continue discussing the developments in the Caucasus" with his Russian counterpart, Dmitry Medvedev.
Medvedev signed a six-point ceasefire deal during Sarkozy's visit on August 12, under which Russia was to pull its troops back to the positions they held before Georgia's August 8 attack on breakaway South Ossetia. However, Russia says the plan allows for a continued "additional security measures" in a buffer zone within Georgia proper.
Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said the "amended" document signed by Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili bears no relation to that signed by Russia. In particular, he said that plans for discussions on the regions' future status, included in the sixth point of the document, were removed from the amended text.
The French delegation also includes European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso and EU foreign policy chief Javier Solana. The group will later travel to Tbilisi.
Nesterenko said he was "not authorized" to comment on other issues to be on the Medvedev-Sarkozy agenda.
Moscow said hundreds of civilians were killed in Georgia's attack on South Ossetia, and thousands fled the devastated region.
Russia's General Staff said 64 servicemen were killed and 323 injured in its operation to force Georgia to peace in South Ossetia.
On August 26, Russia recognized South Ossetia and another Georgian breakaway republic, Abkhazia, as independent states.
Sun, 2008-09-07 23:04
#24
quote:
First I've heard this
April 22, 2008
"A Russian MiG 29 shot down what Georgians say was an unarmed drone used by the ministry of interior. And guess what? They've got video (the beauty of drone warfare). The Georgians, needless to say, are really mad." yada...yada
This ceasefire agreement is about two grades below the Munich agreement.
Mon, 2008-09-08 07:21
#25
N.Beltov
quote:
This ceasefire agreement is about two grades below the Munich agreement.
That's the neocon warmonger line ... comparing current events to the agreement the Brit PM signed in Munich in '38.
You're on the wrong website if you think that bullshit is going to past muster here.
Mon, 2008-09-08 10:07
#26
N.Beltov
quote:
Russian President Dmitry Medvedev has pledged that armed forces will be completely withdrawn from Georgian territory within a month. It follows a meeting with his French counterpart, Nicolas Sarkozy, in Moscow, to further discuss the plan for peace and stability in Abkhazia and South Ossetia.Two hundred European Union observers are to be deployed in areas near the two territories. Ten days after their arrival, Russian forces will complete their withdrawal.
In addition, it was agreed that all Russian-manned observation posts along the line between the Black Sea port city of Poti and Sekaki to the north-east will be vacated within seven days.
Medvedev reaffirmed that the Russian decision to recognise Abkhazian and South Ossetian independence is irreversible.
[url=http://www.russiatoday.com/news/news/30123]EU observers to replace Russian forces[/url]
Mon, 2008-09-08 15:17
#27
N.Beltov
[url=http://www.russiatoday.com/employee/27]The EU blinked first.[/url]
quote:
Russia has received guarantees from the European Union and France as the EU president on the non-use of force by the Georgian side," Russian President Dmitry Medvedev told reporters after talks with French President Nicolas Sarkozy and high-ranking EU representatives on Monday.
Further to that
quote:
Russia, South Ossetia and Abkhazia had long wanted the Tbilisi regime to sign a pact on the non-use of force. Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili always refused, claiming he would never use force against his “own people.” The new agreement demands that Saakashvili sign such a document in the presence of the EU. Now the EU will make sure Saakashvili keeps his word.
The EU has essetially agreed that South Ossetia and Abkhazia are not and will never again be part of Georgia. It's "a victory for the people of both and a vindication of Russian patience throughout the crisis."
[ 08 September 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]
Mon, 2008-09-08 16:41
#28
quote:
That's the neocon warmonger line
Oh my god! After 40 years of pounding orange signs I find out I'm a neocon. [img]eek.gif" border="0[/img]
In just one post I've gone from dipper to stripper. I'm so ashamed. [img]biggrin.gif" border="0[/img]
Mon, 2008-09-08 16:53
#29
N.Beltov
Did you want me to quote neocon Charles Kreuthammer, who put forward your own Munich argument before you did, or will you do your own homework? HTFG.
If you start from Cold War and Russophobic premises then - guess what? - you wind up with Cold War and Russophobic conclusions.
Mon, 2008-09-08 19:17
#30
quote:
you
Don't point that "you" at me bud.
I don't follow neocon theology. [img]smile.gif" border="0[/img]
As for the cold war, I hated the nuclear nightmares many of us had when we were young. That is exactly why this agreement was so disturbing. It was so poorly written it bordered on naivety. The last thing anyone needs is two superpower's running into each other in a confined space. It should have had clear definitions of all six points. I don't wish Georgia to be a client state of the USA or Russia (the same for Canada- perhaps a poly-polar world?). I suppose a neocon argument would be something along the lines of the old domino theory against communism but that old saw cuts both ways. I won't rejoice in Russia's re-emergence as a military power nor will I weep over the Empire's decline.
I am Canadian. Is that a jingle, or what?
Mon, 2008-09-08 19:49
#31
Russia's "re-emergence as a military power"? What would you do if a vicious empire, and spending more on war and weapons than the next 20 countries combined, continues encircling [i]your[/i] country with hundreds of military bases, nuclear weapons and "anti-ballistic missile" baloney?
This is supposed to be the [i]post-[/i]cold war era. You know, that part where peace dividends are supposed to kick-in and we stop the bullshit with threatening every other living thing on earth with nuclear annihilation.
Mon, 2008-09-08 22:42
#32
N.Beltov
quote:
Stanley10: Don't point that "you" at me bud.
It was a manner of expression only, Stanley10. And my point was that you were regurgitating the very argument that neocon Charles Kreuthammer had recently belched forth in one of his columns.
quote:
I won't rejoice in Russia's re-emergence as a military power nor will I weep over the Empire's decline.
If the Empire is in decline then it follows that someone else is in ascendancy, or something like that. You can't have the one without the other.
The US has, both with Democrat Clinton and the current Republican Dubya, over a number of years made it clear that the unipolar world is OFFICIAL DOCTRINE. Furthermore, ANY prospective rival is, in this view, worthy of a bombing, invasion, or assassination of a head of state, no questions asked. This is official doctrine and has been for some time. The fact that a US proxy received a well-deserved hiding, after carrying out atrocities following careful and expensive coaching from the US, is something to be celebrated.
The unipolar world is much more unstable than a multipolar world. This is because the unipolar world only lasts as long as the Empire enforces its will down the barrel of a gun. A multipolar world requires parties to negotiate, work things out, and recognize that the other guy has interests as well. The Americans have been conducting themselves, since the collapse of the Soviet Union, as if they are of the view that the Russians have no interests of any importance whatsoever. That view is now in smithereens, and rightly too.
quote:
That is exactly why this agreement was so disturbing. It was so poorly written it bordered on naivety.
It's remarkable then, Stanley10, that this "disturbing" and "poorly written" agreement, which is already being superseded by additional agreements in any case, got more attention from you based on spelling mistakes of the name of the French President than for any other "reason". Focus on trivia, much?
quote:
The last thing anyone needs is two superpower's running into each other in a confined space.
The last thing we need is one superpower barking orders to the rest of the world and bombing, invading and occupying countries at will. In contrast, the Russian have already pulled out the bulk of their troops from Georgia, after seeing to it that the Saakashvili militarist regime cannot carry out more of the same atrocities, and have established a reasonable timetable for further steps.
Tue, 2008-09-09 05:43
#33
N.Beltov
[url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/08/AR200809... Post: Georgians Question Wisdom of War with Russia.[/url]
Saakashvili, the political corpse, may not even last out the year as President. That didn't take long, did it? Once martial law was lifted in Georgia, and opposition figures would not be shot for speaking against the government, the lid has come off the seething criticism of the militarist regime in Tbilisi ...
quote:
Washington Post: As open war between Georgia and Russia has subsided into a tense standoff among world powers, Georgians inside and outside the government have begun to question the wisdom of the costly confrontation, and of the leaders who set it in motion....... many here say that long before the war, the government used tensions over the breakaway regions to flout basic democratic principles, change the constitution to strengthen the ruling party, ignore judicial problems and suppress the media.
Such complaints helped spark massive protests here last November, which the government crushed with tear gas and masked troops wielding batons, staining Georgia's international image. Saakashvili ended the crisis by calling a snap presidential election; he won a second term, though with less support than in the previous election and with allegations of vote-rigging....
Several critics said they worried that speaking out too soon could undermine their chances of changing the leadership. "A lot of people are afraid that they could be arrested for treason," said a government official who recounted discussing with others in the government ways to challenge the administration. Sitting near an outdoor cafe called KGB: Still Watching You, he pushed his cellphone to the other side of the table, noting, "Now, everybody is quite silent, and moving away from cellphones."
Some "democracy". [img]rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img]
Meanwhile, the US is providing another $1 Billion in aid, no strings attached, which opposition figures are calling a huge mistake.
quote:
Several, however, expressed fear that rather than feeling chastened by the war, the ruling party will interpret the $1 billion in aid pledged by the United States last week as a green light to continue its policies.To offer the aid without conditions was "a mistake," Gamkrelidze said, adding that assistance should be tied to judicial, legislative, constitutional and media reforms. "He almost got us into a new cold war, or a third world war. It must be in the interest of the U.S. and European allies to make this country more democratic and more accountable."
Perhaps not. Georgia, it turns out, was just a stick with which the USA, and its NATO stooges, could poke the Russian bear with.
Tue, 2008-09-09 18:56
#34
N.Beltov
quote:
Globe and Mail: "The Russians are right! We're wrong! Georgia started it, the Russians ended it," Rep. Dana Rohrbacher, a California Republican, told Assistant Secretary of State Dan Fried, who testified on administration policy to both the Senate panel and the House Foreign Affairs Committee.
That's [b]Republican Congressman Dana Rohrbacher who said that.[/b]
quote:
In a separate hearing on Tuesday in the U.S. House of Representatives, several lawmakers from both parties criticized the Bush administration approach as anti-Russian and to the detriment of U.S. interests."Our friends in Russia are as important as our friends in Georgia. We must find a balance," said Rep. Sheila Jackson Lee, a Texas Democrat. She said $1 billion dollars in aid for Georgia was "over the top" and hoped Congress would cut it.
"The Russians are right! We're wrong! Georgia started it, the Russians ended it," Rep. Dana Rohrbacher, a California Republican, told Assistant Secretary of State Dan Fried, who testified on administration policy to both the Senate panel and the House Foreign Affairs Committee.
Mr. Rohrbacher said the situation with Georgia's breakaway regions was clearly analogous to Kosovo, which was part of Serbia until it declared independence in February with U.S. support. For U.S. officials to keep saying there was no correlation "undermines our credibility," he said.
[url=http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080909.wgeorgiaUS09... to pump up Georgian military again ANYWAY[/url]
What with Dick Cheney's bumbling trip to Azerbaijan recently, where he didn't even rate a meeting with the Azeri President (who, wisely, had better things to do) and failed to get the Azeri government to jump to orders barked at them to insult the Russians in some way, it's beginning to look a lot like an utter rout.
But, Geez, do the Russians have to run up the score so much?
[ 09 September 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]
Tue, 2008-09-09 19:56
#35
quote:
If the Empire is in decline then it follows that someone else is in ascendancy, or something like that. You can't have the one without the other.
I am really interested with this statement. Why does anyone need to be ascendant during the decline of an empire?
Tue, 2008-09-09 20:14
#36
N.Beltov
When it's a self-declared unipolar empire, as the US is, then ANY country that successfully challenges this [i]Pax Americana[/i] is actually helping ALL other rivals. The unipolar world only lasts as long as it can be enforced.
However, I didn't mean to imply that the Russians ought to, or indeed desire to, replace the single dominant Empire. Medvedev's 5 points have made that very clear. [b]From the point of view of the Empire, it looks like the ascendancy of a rival when the Empire is in decline.[/b] I should have made the point of view I was adopting more clear.
Thanks for the reminder. I wasn't clear enough. What I typed reads like a "zero sum" analysis ... which is a viewpoint that I don't share.
[ 09 September 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]
Tue, 2008-09-09 22:45
#37
N.Beltov
Here is a very sober and highly critical review of the weaknesses of the Russian Army that were revealed in the war in South Ossetia and Georgia.
[url=http://en.rian.ru/analysis/20080909/116657490.html]Russian Army weaknesses revealed.[/url]
quote:
The Russian Army primarily requires combat-support systems, rather than new weaponry, in order to become a genuinely modern and effective fighting force.Those, who fought in the South Caucasus this August, know that [b]Russian peace-keepers sustained the greatest casualties during the first hours of the Georgian aggression because Moscow and Vladikavkaz, where the 58th Army's headquarters is located, failed to promptly order troops to repel the attack and to send elements of the 58th Army to South Ossetia.[/b]
Moreover, Russian forces did not know the firing positions of Georgia's Grad multiple-launch rocket systems, Gvozdika self-propelled guns and T-72 tank units.
Nor did the Russian Army have any dependable reconnaissance systems, including unmanned combat aerial vehicles (UCAVs).
Although Russian and foreign UCAVs are regularly displayed at the annual MAKS international aerospace show in Zhukovsky near Moscow, including at the MAKS-2007 show, the Russian Army still lacks them because the national Defense Ministry decided to stop buying them in 2006.
Consequently, [b]the Russians had no choice but to send a Tupolev Tu-22M3 Backfire strategic bomber on a reconnaissance mission and to use Sukhoi Su-25 Frogfoot ground-attack jets to hit Georgian MLRS batteries.
The Georgians downed four Russian aircraft, which could have been saved if the Russians had the required UCAVs.[/b]
and so on.
Wed, 2008-09-10 03:17
#38
Great, it looks like Canada will be contributing to the re-armament of Georgia.
quote:
Pentagon set on mission to rebuild Georgian militaryPublished: Tuesday September 9, 2008
The Pentagon said Tuesday it was sending a team to Georgia this week to assess needs for rebuilding its military, emphasizing that Tbilisi must be capable of deterring any new Russian attack.
"The Department of Defense is sending an assessment team to Tbilisi later this week to help us begin to consider carefully Georgia's legitimate needs and our response," said Under Secretary of Defense Eric Edelman.
"There should not be any question whether Georgia is entitled to military assistance from NATO or any allies." ...
US efforts to help Georgia will not be undertaken by Washington alone, Edelman said, citing parallel moves by NATO.
[url=http://rawstory.com/news/afp/Pentagon_set_on_mission_to_rebuild__0909200... story[/url]
Wed, 2008-09-10 05:17
#39
N.Beltov
While the NATO countries will be providing military assistance to the Georgian regime - in addition to the current "humanitarian" assistance which will undoubtedly appear on the black market in short order - there have been no announcements of assistance for the victims of the Georgian bombardment of South Ossetia. Zero. Nada. Squat. It would be easy enough to conclude from that that the governments of the NATO countries [b]approve[/b] of the bombing of civilians. Come to think of it, didn't the NATO countries do that themselves already in Serbia over Kosovo? Isn't the US doing it in Afghanistan?
The Russians have called for an arms embargo of the Tbilisi militarist regime - so that what happened on Aug 7/8 won't be repeated. That call looks to be falling upon deaf (NATO) ears. The EU countries, however, are now responsible for the conduct of the Tbilisi regime, which is a kind of progress, thanks to the terms and conditions of the new agreement worked out on Monday through the offices of the French President.
Just to reiterate: contrarianna's story shows that the NATO countries, including Canada presumably, will be re-arming the very militarist regime that started the war in the first place. There have been no conditions attached to the "aid" that is being provided - to the tune of a billion dollars so far - to the Tbilisi regime. And nothing is being provided to the victims of that regime.
This is what is called Western "civilization". As the great spirit (Maha atma) Gandhi once said in response to the question, "What do you think of Western Civilization?",... "I think it would be a good idea." Western civilization [b]would[/b] be a good idea ... but there is little evidence of it with NATO's most recent plans.
Thu, 2008-09-11 04:15
#40
N.Beltov
[url=http://en.rian.ru/photolents/20080911/116702810.html]Photographic evidence of US military providing training for Georgian troops in sabotage, IEDs, etc. in Abkhazia.[/url]
The Georgian troops were "peacekeepers". I guess they won't be allowed back into Abkhazia or Ossetia anytime soon ...
Fri, 2008-09-12 07:03
#41
N.Beltov
The USA is up to its old tricks again. No clear answer yet on whether the victims of the Georgian aggression in South Ossetia, and the intended victims in Abkhazia, WILL BE ISSUED VISAS so they can address the UN Security Council.
quote:
The United States authorities have not yet decided whether to issue visas to the Abkhaz and South Ossetian officials who wanted to attend a session of the United Nations Security Council, Russian Foreign Ministry's spokesman Andrei Nesterenko said.
[url=http://www.interfax.com/3/427354/news.aspx]Interfax[/url]
Fri, 2008-09-12 07:27
#42
N.Beltov
Noam Chomsky makes a few remarks on Counterpunch and, wisely, points out the hypocrisy of a country (his own) that blathers on about international law and the inviability of borders while having an official doctrine, whoever occupies the White House, of enforcing the unipolar world through the barrel of a gun.
quote:
Chomsky: Russia called for an emergency session of the Security Council, but no consensus was reached because, according to Council diplomats, the US, Britain, and some others rejected a phrase that called on both sides “to renounce the use of force.”The typical reactions recall Orwell’s observations on the “indifference to reality” of the “nationalist,” who “not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but ... has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them.”
Yes. I've seen this "remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them" myself. Well put, Noam.
quote:
Chomsky: The basic facts are not seriously in dispute. South Ossetia, along with the much more significant region of Abkhazia, were assigned by Stalin to his native Georgia. Western leaders sternly admonish that Stalin’s directives must be respected, despite the strong opposition of Ossetians and Abkhazians. The provinces enjoyed relative autonomy until the collapse of the USSR. In 1990, Georgia’s ultranationalist president Zviad Gamsakhurdia abolished autonomous regions and invaded South Ossetia. The bitter war that followed left 1000 dead and tens of thousands of refugees, with the capital city of Tskhinvali “battered and depopulated” (New York Times).A small Russian force then supervised an uneasy truce, broken decisively on August 7, 2008, when Georgian president Saakashvili’s ordered his forces to invade. According to “an extensive set of witnesses,” the Times reports, Georgia’s military at once “began pounding civilian sections of the city of Tskhinvali, as well as a Russian peacekeeping base there, with heavy barrages of rocket and artillery fire.” The predictable Russian response drove Georgian forces out of South Ossetia, and Russia went on to conquer parts of Georgia, then partially withdrawing to the vicinity of South Ossetia.
[url=http://www.counterpunch.org/chomsky09112008.html]Ossetia-Georgia-Russia-...
Congratulations to Chomsky for putting Ossetia first. I've changed the title of this thread accordingly.
Fri, 2008-09-12 08:17
#43
N.Beltov
In a previous thread, one of babble's right wing contributors compared the western response to Russia defeating the Georgian attack and destroying much of the military infrastructure of the Tbilisi regime as a kind of Munich-like appeasement. It was barely worth responding to at the time, but I see that over a year ago former President, now PM, Putin already made a response ...
quote:
Vlad Sobell, senior economist, Daiwa Research, London: In February 2007 Putin informed the West that the time of appeasement was over. Ironically this happened in a speech delivered in Munich, the very city, which came to be associated with the appeasement of Adolf Hitler.Putin did so politely but firmly and unambiguously. Instead of carefully listening to his message, Western leaders intensified their demonising of Russia. Washington, for its part, pushed for Ukraine and Georgia's membership of NATO, while surging ahead with negotiations for the installation of the anti-missile defences in Central Europe - this in full knowledge that Russia would find it an unacceptable menace to its security.
In August, the Kremlin finally acted on the notice it had issued in Munich eighteen months earlier, although unfortunately it waited until provoked by Washington's puppet Saakashvili, an error that cost dozens of military and hundreds of civilian lives on both sides. Thus the wisdom that appeasement does not pay, learned in Munich before the Second World War, has once again been vindicated.
Pogo: "We have met the enemy and he is us."
[ 12 September 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]
Sat, 2008-09-13 05:39
#44
N.Beltov
NATO is visiting Georgia to take inventory of military equipment, prior to re-arming the Tbilisi militarist regime.
quote:
A group of NATO experts has arrived in Tbilisi. Kommersant has learned that they will evaluate the losses to the Georgian military infrastructure in its recent conflict with Russia. The alliance is taking inventory before providing Georgia with aid. A decision on the volume and nature of that aid will be made at the visiting session of the NATO council that will be held in Tbilisi next week.
[url=http://www.kommersant.com/p1023628/r_538/Russia_Georgia_conflict/]NATO takes count.[/url]
[ 13 September 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]
Sat, 2008-09-13 09:15
#45
N.Beltov
from [i]Russia in Global Affairs[/i], which is a kind of Russian equivalent to [i]Foreign Affairs[/i] in the USA. In fact, the latter even helps with the publication of the Russian editior of the former.
[url=http://eng.globalaffairs.ru/numbers/24/1210.html]web page[/url]
Sergei Lavrov is the Russian Foreign Minister. In this article, [i]Russia and the World in the 21st Century[/i], he outlines his views on the "post-American" situation. It makes very interesting reading in light of the recent events in the Caucuses. One might say that economy precedes politics and that a disruption of the American uni-polar world was inevitable, regardless of the Georgian attack upon South Ossetia.
quote:
Lavrov: In modern international relations it is difficult to find a more fundamental issue than the definition of the current stage in global development.
OK, so what are the models?
quote:
There is already no doubt that the end of the Cold War marked the end of a longer stage in global development, which lasted for 400 to 500 years and when [b]the world was dominated by European civilization.[/b] This domination was consistently led by the historical West.As regards the content of [b]the new stage in humankind’s development, there are two basic approaches[/b] to it among countries. [b]The first one holds that the world must gradually become a Greater West through the adoption of Western values. It is a kind of “the end of history.” The other approach – advocated by Russia – holds that competition is becoming truly global and acquiring a civilizational dimension; that is, the subject of competition now includes values and development models.[/b]
What does this second approach look like?
quote:
It is a world where – due to the growth of other global centers of power and influence – the relative importance of the U.S. role has been decreasing, as it has already happened in recent decades in the global economy and trade....[b]Various terms have been proposed to define the content of the emerging world order, among them multi-polar, polycentric and nonpolar.[/b] The latter characteristic is given, in particular, by Richard Haass. It is difficult not to agree with him that power and influence are now becoming diffused. But even the former director of policy planning for the U.S. State Department admits that ensuring the governability of global development in the new conditions [b]requires establishing a core group of leading nations.[/b] That is, in any case the matter at hand is [b]the need for collective leadership,[/b] which Russia has been consistently advocating. [b]Of course, the diversity of the world requires that such collective leadership be truly representative both geographically and civilizationally.[/b]
We do not share the apprehensions that the ongoing reconfiguration in the world will inevitably bring about “chaos and anarchy.” It is a natural process of forming a new international architecture – both political and financial-economic – that would meet the new realities.
[b]One such reality is the return of Russia to global politics, the global economy and finance as an active, full-fledged actor. This refers to our place on the world energy and grain markets; to our leadership in the field of nuclear energy and space exploration; to our capabilities in the sphere of land, air and sea transit; and to the role of the ruble as one of the most reliable world currencies.
Unfortunately, the Cold War experience has distorted the consciousness of several generations of people, above all political elites, making them think that any global policy must be ideologized.[/b] And now, when Russia is guided in international affairs by understandable, pragmatic interests, void of any ideological motives whatsoever, not everyone is able to adequately take it.
Further:
quote:
This situation will hardly change soon, as the matter at issue is psychological factors – after all, at least two generations of political leaders were brought up in a certain ideological system of coordinates, and sometimes they are simply unable to think in categories beyond those frameworks. Other factors include quite specific, understandably interested motives pertaining to privileges that the existing global financial-economic architecture gives to individual countries.
Remember, Lavrov wrote this well before the events in the Caucuses last month.
Current failures of Anglo-Saxon models and European social models of economic development come under scrutiny by Lavrov. He suggests that the current failure of the Anglo-Saxon models have to do with "the isolation of the U.S. financial system from the real sector of (the) economy."
What's all this to lead to?
quote:
Probably, a synthesis of various models – as a process, rather than a final result – will be a key trend in global development in the foreseeable future. Accordingly, the multiformity of the contemporary world, which reflects its more fundamental characteristic – cultural and civilizational diversity, will remain. One can also assume that in order to make the global “rules of the game” more effective in these conditions, they must be freed from ideology.
Finally, Lavrov makes an interesting observation about the influence of foreign policy upon domestic policy.
quote:
I would like to make it clear: Russia, as no other country, understands the painfulness of the current changes. No one can get away from them. [b]Moreover, as experience shows, adaptation at the level of foreign policy can only result from serious changes within the states themselves.[/b] Therefore Russia has quite realistic expectations regarding when changes should be awaited in the foreign policy philosophy of its international partners.
However, I should add that Lavrov's concillatory tone may have been shattered by the events in South Ossetia. The following remark ...
quote:
Finally, we all should step over ourselves and stop the unnecessary talk about “veto power” outside the UN Security Council, about “spheres of influence” and the like. We can very well do without all that, as there are more important things where we undoubtedly have common interests.
... suggests that it may be that Russian thinking is much more of the "spheres of influence" approach than it was before the invasion of South Ossetia. But that change, if true, is hardly exclusively of their own doing.
Sat, 2008-09-13 14:59
#46
Very good/interesting comments Beltov. [img]smile.gif" border="0[/img]
I may be wrong but it appears that South American countries are developing a more cooperative economic model without the "spheres of influence" now that they have shrugged off the IMF and WB to a large extent.
(Edit: added last paragraph).
[ 13 September 2008: Message edited by: Stanley10 ]
Sat, 2008-09-13 16:04
#47
N.Beltov
The Americans, if they cannot adapt, will be left behind. I don not know if they can live with being second best.
We live in interesting times.
Sat, 2008-09-13 21:53
#48
quote:
...if they cannot adapt, will be left behind.
I believe adaptation is not likely, nor will we hear a whimper. I've read that one of the necessary features of the "Standard Economic Model" (or "Washington Consensus" or "Merged Model" in its IMF form) is that it requires continuous economic growth, which is, eventually, unsustainable. On the way to its demise, this model requires more and more countries(markets and resources)to participate and play by the same rules(globalization). To keep this Ponzi scheme going requires participation by force, if necessary.
I understand the US 4th fleet(South America) is being reestablished after 60 years.
Harper's 'everything is for sale' election promise is expected.
And god forbid that control of some resources leads to nation/nation out-market bartering in real goods.(just kidding)
No doubt, interesting times.
Sat, 2008-09-13 22:48
#49
I wonder if Moscow used the old "sphere of influence" justification when they ordered the invasion of Hungary and Czechoslovakia? I also wonder if this "event" might only increase the odds of neighbouring states wanting to join Nato. Damn independent micro-states, always getting in the way of the really "important" geopolitical "actors" needed to uphold the "emerging world order".
[ 13 September 2008: Message edited by: Erik Redburn ]
Sat, 2008-09-13 23:27
#50
"One such reality is the return of Russia to global politics, the global economy and finance as an active, full-fledged actor. This refers to our place on the world energy and grain markets; to our leadership in the field of nuclear energy and space exploration; to our capabilities in the sphere of land, air and sea transit; and to the role of the ruble as one of the most reliable world currencies."
They really should have mentioned the small role of "high oil prices" in their latest nationalist resurgence as well. I wonder too if these still high prices will reduce the odds of the Georgia-Amerikan pact sending their SUV divisions to Moscow this fall? Questions questions questions.
Sun, 2008-09-14 05:54
#51
N.Beltov
Erik, the balance of military forces between the NATO and the Warsaw Pact in Europe was a totally different sort of equation than the current global situation is. This is part of what Lavrov is saying.
I don't think it's useful to compare the role of Soviet and Warsaw Pact troops in Europe in those events and the role of Russian troops in the Georgian-Ossetian conflict. There was no serious attempt at regime change on the part of the Russians recently; their aim was an objective which, once achieved, made their troop presence mostly unnecessary in Georgia; and their current actions were a [i]response[/i] to a completely unnecessary military attack on civilians which made theirs more a humanitarian mission than a military one. The Azeris, for example, thanked the Russians for NOT targeting the oil pipeline belonging to them, on Georgian soil, during the conflict, when it is clear as day that were geopolitical factors as important to the Russians as they are to the Americans, then such pipelines would have been an ideal target. The Georgian military was partly disarmed, the Russians have called for a military embargo of that country, and they have left Georgians, rightly, to decide on what to do about Saakashvili themselves. This is a different sort of Russia. To paraphrase Medvedev, the Americans have too many Sovietologists and not enough experts on Russia.
I think what leading figures in Russia, like Lavrov, have been saying is: that their country is not the old Soviet Union and does not conduct its foreign policy in the same way that that regime did; that they are genuinely puzzled why Russia was not invited to be part of NATO long ago, making the conflict in the Caucuses much less likely; and that when it comes to current contracts regarding gas and oil in Europe, they have every intention of living up to them regardless of the ideologized foreign relations that they are currently being subjected to by the USA, etc..