Israel not an apartheid state: a progressive prospective

20 posts / 0 new
Last post
St. Paul's Prog...
Israel not an apartheid state: a progressive prospective

I disagree with many of Israel's policies.  I agree with many of Gerald Caplan's criticisms of the Netanyahu government.

I also can't stand some of Israel's supporters - like Alan Dershowitz - who support the state blindly and demonize its critics.  Nor am I happy with the personal attacks on Richard Goldstone, even if I think there are legitimate criticisms to be made of his report.

But is Israel actually an apartheid state?  I don't think so.

Benjamin Pogrund has a very good piece here.  I am sorry I can't find the original and it only appears on a "Zionist" website.  It's not where I originally read a few years ago.   Still, worth a read.  Pogrund is South African and fought against Apartheid there.  And he certainly doesn't overlook the very real problems with Israel, and he opposes the Occupation.

On Israel proper:

Quote:
"Arabs are a substantial minority, about 20 per cent of the population. In theory they have full citizenship rights. In practice they suffer extensive discrimination, ranging from denial of land use, diminished job opportunities and lesser social benefits, to reports of a family ordered off a beach and children evicted from a park. Only some 5,05 per cent of the 55 500 civil servants are Arabs. Arab villages are often under-funded and suffer from poor services and roads. Schools receive smaller amounts of government revenue, so their facilities are poorer.

None of this is acceptable and especially in a state that presents itself as the only democracy in the Middle East. But is it comparable with pre-1994 South Africa? Under apartheid, remember, no detail of life was immune to discrimination by law. Skin colour determined every single person’s life, literally from birth until death: where you were born, where you went to school, what job you had, which bus you used, what park bench you sat on and in which cemetery you were buried. In Israel, discrimination occurs despite equality in law; it is extensive, it is buttressed by custom, but it is not remotely comparable with the South African panoply of discrimination enforced by parliamentary legislation. The difference is fundamental.

The Israeli situation can perhaps be better likened to the United States: blacks enjoyed rights under the Constitution but the rights were not enforced for decades; it took the Supreme Court’s historic judgement in Brown vs Board of Education in 1954 to begin the process of applying the law.

The difference between the current Israeli situation and apartheid South Africa is emphasised at a very human level: Jewish and Arab babies are born in the same delivery room, with the same facilities, attended by the same doctors and nurses, with the mothers recovering in adjoining beds in a ward. Two years ago I had major surgery in a Jerusalem hospital: the surgeon was Jewish, the anaesthetist was Arab, the doctors and nurses who looked after me were Jews and Arabs. Jews and Arabs share meals in restaurants and travel on the same trains, buses and taxis, and visit each other’s homes."

On the Occupied Territories:

Quote:
It is occupied by Israel. No occupation can be benign. Israeli harshness and misdeeds are reported day in and day out by Israeli media. Everyone is suffering, Palestinians as victims and Israelis as perpetrators. Death and maiming haunts everyone in the occupied territories and in Israel itself. Occupation is brutalising and corrupting both Palestinians and Israelis. The damage done to the fabric of both societies, moral and material, is incalculable.

But it is not apartheid. Palestinians are not oppressed on racial grounds as Arabs, but, rather, as competitors — until now, at the losing end — in a national/religious conflict for land.

St. Paul's Prog...
Unionist

Quote:
Palestinians are not oppressed on racial grounds as Arabs, but, rather, as competitors — until now, at the losing end — in a national/religious conflict for land.

Good, so we can't accuse Radovan Karadzic of promoting apartheid either, because his ethnic cleansing and murders weren't based on race.

That is a very comforting thought, both to Karadzic and Netanyahu. I wonder if Karadzic will use his non-racial policies as part of his defence. I wonder if Netanyahu will, when he is called to the dock someday soon ([i]im yirtzeh hashem[/i]).

This whole article is horrifyingly "neutral": "Death and maiming haunts everyone in the occupied territories and in Israel itself." "No occupation can be benign." Palestinians are the victims, but what the hell, it's just a competition, someone has to be losing.

If this is a "progressive" article, then the progressives should be hauled up on war crimes charges.

NDPP

Mandela's cellmate says Israeli apartheid worse than South Africa (vid)

http://alethonews.blogspot.com/2009/11/video-mandelas-cellmate-says-isra...

Israel and the Apartheid Analogy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_the_apartheid_analogy

Dredging Up the Israel/Apartheid Question:

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2010/03/02-4

"Israel's defense minister warned Tuesday that if Israel does not achieve a peace deal with the Palestinians, it will either be a binational state or an undemocratic apartheid state..

"The simple truth is, if there is one state including Israel, the West Bank and Gaza, it will have to be either binational or undemocratic..if this bloc of millions of Palestinians cannot vote, that will be an apartheid state.."

If it quacks like 'apartheid'...

E.Tamaran

The Palestinians have it 100 times better than FNs in KKKanada. I want to spit at people who put all this effort into IAW when something far more horryfying is taking place right under their settler noses. Bastards!

LimeJello

Well, sure, it's a lot easier to lash out at a country on the other side of the world than it is to admit that we're living on stolen land and actually do something about it.

And the comparison between Karazdic and Israel is false and self-discrediting. Israel isn't attempting to wipe out the Palestinains. If it were there would be 140,000 or more dead from the Gaza incursion, not 1400. They were trying to provide a strong deterrent to Hamas to prevent rockets being launched at Israel's south. It really doesn't help the Palestinian cause and those of us who would like to have the settlers removed from the West Bank and have Palestinians be able to live in a free, democratic state of their own, when patently ridiculous charges of genocide are made against Israel. Israel's supporters have no problem disproving that and once you start to harm the Palestinian credibilty by making clearly false charges  about "genocide" (and you might want to check the data on the growth of the Palestinian population in the Occupied territories), it harms the credibility of everything people trying to promote a just peace have to say, so please be careful about your accusations and avoid the propaganda chants in favor of facts. There are enough real facts that make Israel's treatment of the Palestinians look bad, but it's counter-productive to invent charges of genocide and apartheid. 

Rabble may be the wrong forum to make these points, as I think many here have bought into everything Naomi Klein has to say on the subject, but I'm of the opinion that an open mind is a good thing.

 

Green Grouch

Man, ya wanna deal with some of those anger issues, E.? Every time I see you on this board you seem to be wishing someone ill or getting into an enraged froth. Sure, anger is needed and it's just and often it's good, but if it's continuous and it pits one struggle against another, it's corrosive. Saying people locked up behind a wall or being bombed are 100 times better off than First Nations here isn't something I'll even start to debate on logical grounds. I'll just say that pitting resistors against each other plays totally into the hands of the oppressors. Kenney, Strahl et al love it. They count on it.

I'm guessing a lot of these people are one and the same, so you'll be spitting on those who are First Nations, or who are supporting FNs and coming to terms with being a settler. Apartheid as a concept began here (Heather Robertson documents this in "Reservations are for Indians") so yes, every settler here needs to be aware that nothing too much has changed.

I'm just glad this debate has blown into the open because of the use of the word. And if it gets us talking about a continuum of apartheid, and pushes us to see that reports of its death have been greatly exaggerated at home and elsewhere, I'm for it.

Unionist

E.Tamaran wrote:

The Palestinians have it 100 times better than FNs in KKKanada. I want to spit at people who put all this effort into IAW when something far more horryfying is taking place right under their settler noses. Bastards!

I never cared much for people who think their own problems are worse than everyone else's. They're always wrong.

E.Tamaran

Unionist wrote:

E.Tamaran wrote:

The Palestinians have it 100 times better than FNs in KKKanada. I want to spit at people who put all this effort into IAW when something far more horryfying is taking place right under their settler noses. Bastards!

I never cared much for people who think their own problems are worse than everyone else's. They're always wrong.

Well Unionist that's very easy for you to say, since you and your settler friends have basically stolen everything from the original peoples of Turtle Island and returned next to nothing. You created residential schools, practiced bio-warfare on helpless people, outlawed cultural practices, and attempted to genocide us. Quite the legacy you have Unionist.

milo204

First, "apartheid" isn't by any means the only term used to describe israels policies, i think the term it finds it's way into the debate because of the long standing support and ties between the apartheid regime in SA and the israeli government, and that there are many similarities between the policies of the two countries (checkpoints, israeli only roads, bantustans, racism-nationalism, imprisonment of activists)

arguing whether it is or isn't apartheid is just a major distraction to the real issue of the effeect of israel/US/Canadian policies on palestinians and the region.  whatever we call it--it is still a massive injustice.

 

 

 

Unionist

E.Tamaran wrote:

Well Unionist that's very easy for you to say, since you and your settler friends have basically stolen everything from the original peoples of Turtle Island and returned next to nothing. You created residential schools, practiced bio-warfare on helpless people, outlawed cultural practices, and attempted to genocide us. Quite the legacy you have Unionist.

Actually, when you talked about grandmothers, I lowered my guard and disclosed to you that one of my grandmothers had starved to death in a ghetto, while the other had been taken out and shot, by the genocidal racists. So you're worse off than the Palestinians, and I'm worse off than you. And here I thought the Olympics were over.

End of extremely sarcastic and angry comment, and beginning of some good advice:

Listen to me, my friend: If you are incapable of seeing the suffering of others, you will never achieve emancipation. Never. Fortunately, that feature does not characterize your people. Without solidarity, we are all dead. Count on it. Mark my words.

 

Joey Ramone

I am Aboriginal and have been a FN rights activist for more than 20 years, and I find E. Tamaran's statement too ludicrous to debate.  Remember fellow babblers, this is someone who thinks that FN resistance against colonialism should start with Indian Act band councils establishing ethnically cleansed bantustans by evicting from their communities widdows and orphans who do not meet blood quantum tests.  Not surpising he has trouble understanding what's happening to Palestinians.

NDPP

E.Tamaran wrote:

The Palestinians have it 100 times better than FNs in KKKanada. I want to spit at people who put all this effort into IAW when something far more horryfying is taking place right under their settler noses. Bastards!

NDPP

Indeed,  Canada has 'succeeded' in ways Israel can only dream of.

The IAW event I attended last night had Aboriginal speakers treating this very issue of common oppressions and their relationships. Shawn Brant from Tyendinaga is also scheduled to speak as part of IAW.  I gather that Indigenous from there and here are very much in touch and comparing notes on the themes and variations of settler state colonialisms and genocides. Perhaps we'll see Intifada and BDS against Canada someday soon.

 

 

E.Tamaran

In a way NDPP the "intifada" started a while ago. The Warrior heroes have reoccupied Caledonia and Ipperwash. Mohawks are reclaiming their lands from settler interlopers. But the thing to keep in mind is that it's being done legally and without violence on our part.

Lou Arab Lou Arab's picture

E. Tamaran

You have successfully derailed this thread.  

This is a warning.  Stop doing that. You can start threads on first nations issues if you wish, but babblers have a right to debate international issues if they like.

A word of advice to others, if you want to debate Israel, don't respond when others try to derail the discussion.

Tommy_Paine

 

 

Are we not down to debating what flavour of aparthied we are dealing with in Israel?   Obviously, the situation will never be identicle in terms of South Africa's Aparthied Laws, and Israeli law.   

But, is not the intent the same?

 

 

NDPP

PALESTIN[D]IANS

http://wwwthesixthestate.blogspot.com/2009/01/monsters-of-wannsee-confer...

"You know we are like the Palestinians of North America and they are like the Indians of the Middle East.."

Unionist

Lou Arab wrote:

A word of advice to others, if you want to debate Israel, don't respond when others try to derail the discussion.

On behalf of "others" - we don't want to debate Israel, any more than we want to debate South Africa. This thread was opened as a pro-Zionist provocation which has no place on this discussion board. So, instead of just swearing and cursing and complaining to the mods, some of us decided to derail the discussion. My bad. I suppose I could go back to condemning the apologists for Israeli crimes as the accomplices of genocide and apartheid and aggression that they are. Would that be preferable?

Tommy_Paine wrote:

Are we not down to debating what flavour of aparthied we are dealing with in Israel?   Obviously, the situation will never be identicle in terms of South Africa's Aparthied Laws, and Israeli law.   

But, is not the intent the same?

Exactly, Tommy - but the apologists for racism and mass murder can't face that truth head on, so they write disgusting hate-filled article saying that as long as they're not discriminating [b]racially[/b] against the Palestinians, they're really not that bad. And part 2, of course, is that if you call Israel "apartheid", you're demonizing a state, and why would you do that? Why, because you're an anti-semite.

We have to work for the day when those who put forward arguments like the one in the OP will be chased out of any place where decent people gather, just as it was for the architects of the U.S. war in Vietnam and the defenders of apartheid in South Africa. No amount of diversion will prevent that inevitable day from dawning.

Unionist

Wonderful article by James M. Craven - thank you so much for this, NDPP.

 

oldgoat

Unionist Wrote:

On behalf of "others" - we don't want to debate Israel, any more than we want to debate South Africa. This thread was opened as a pro-Zionist provocation which has no place on this discussion board. So, instead of just swearing and cursing and complaining to the mods, some of us decided to derail the discussion. My bad.

Your bad, yes, probably. You can probably also complain to mods without swearing and cursing, and also without getting pissy with someone who tries to bring some focus and direction to a thread. As you've pointed out, this thread is lacking on a number of levels so I'll close it.

Topic locked