Detention of Meng Wanzhou - CFO of Huawei

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:

SNCL is related because the Chinese now have public proof that the cabinet intervenes in legal disputes when they want to -- that they can. This is devastating for Canada's position in the Meng case.

Well, I think the slight difference is that they weren't supposed to, and as evidence of that, it's created a giant dumpster fire that our government is still trying to put out.  That's a bit different from such intervention being a natural and accepted part of our process that we failed to disclose to China.

If my friend once stole something from work for himself, would it be reasonable to expect him to steal something from work for me, since he did it once before?

Well not a good analogy since this government is still defending this saying it was okay. If okay for SNCL why not for China when the US is clearly being abusive with the process? Isn't relations with China more valuable than this one company? China proving the the cost will be more with them....

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:

SNCL is related because the Chinese now have public proof that the cabinet intervenes in legal disputes when they want to -- that they can. This is devastating for Canada's position in the Meng case.

Well, I think the slight difference is that they weren't supposed to, and as evidence of that, it's created a giant dumpster fire that our government is still trying to put out.  That's a bit different from such intervention being a natural and accepted part of our process that we failed to disclose to China.

The PMO side of the story says that this was just business as usual and JWR just didn't understand the culture. It is a scandal because JWR has held the norm up to the light and it does not look good as a "rule of law."

It could very well be that the Chinese claims are exaggerated. But after a bit of research, for me indicates that the Chinese government may only be trying to overprotect their domestic rapeseed growers.  

Its clear now that anything that the Chinese complain or criticize Canadian product/produce about will now be linked to the detention of Ms Meng by the icm. 

In fact, the icm, since the detention of Ms Meng at the start of December 2018, will completely refer all relations between China and Canada back to HuaWei and Ms Meng. 

Everything China does that Canada doesn’t like, is because Canadian courts detained Ms Meng. There can be no other reason according to the Canadian icm and freeland. 

Pondering wrote:

China said, in relation to the canola ban, that Canada should reconsider it's recent actions, without specifying which actions. How clever. I don't have a quote but comment made my ears perk up so I remember it. I'm hoping someone else heard the same thing. 

Your memory and my memory of Canada's recent actions does not necessarily match China's memory as mine does not match yours entirely.

Here is what I understood happened simplified:

Canada arrested Meng.

The Chinese protested.

Trump damaged the US legal position by admitting it is political. Perhaps Trump was just stupidly telling the truth. Everything is political about relations between countries. It always is an issue that countries protect each other from the consequences others might have when relations are good and harm each other more when relations are bad. It is not as if the issues are not legitimate but they are always coloured by realpolitik.

China wanted Canada to respond by releasing Meng.

The Chinese demanded Canada urgently speak to them about the relationship. They did this with Canada obviously picking the US as it had little choice but to do.

Instead of showing any awareness or competence, Trudeau insulted China by saying that he as the PM would not bother to call the Chinese and relegated this to lower levels.

China responded by taking more action to get the government of Canada's attention by advancing the concerns it already had with Canadians. These concerns may have been mitigated by the good relations Canada had but now they would be unprotected due to the decline in quality of the relationship.

Trudeau responded by saying China's actions were random implying that the Chinese have no system and its concerns (including drug trafficking) were baseless and not worth addressing.

China is taking more actions to advance any legitimate claim it has against Canada to prove the point that good relations actually serve Canada's interest.

Trudeau arrogantly continues a condescending position that China has no point in any of the issues China is raising.

Not as flattering as it looks when you see it in a one-sided way is it?

Fact: China's position all along is similar to the US position and in line with reality -- the relationship colours how much each party is protected from the normal process in each other's country between a hardline position and outright protect. Canada is no different. Canada's relationship with Saudi Arabia has suffered but we did not cancel the military weapons we sold them nor send their nationals away -- and the government of Canada did speak to the Saudis and attempted high level communication. Our relationship is bigger than an issue and the issues are affected by the overall relationship as much as the overall relationship is affected by the issues. Only in Trudeau's unicorn universe are they separate. Otherwise, China has seen a demonstration that its relationship with Canada, in the tiny mind of Trudeau, is no more important that that between Saudi Arabia and Canada. The Chinese are in the process of educating Trudeau, who is a slow learner, to the contrary. Canada will pay the price of this.

Trudeau has been arrogant and incompetent. His SNCL scandal has shone a spotlight on this in ways that are awkward for his government. One point proven is that the Trudeau government only claims to have principles. This is directly relevant.

That is how I see the thing and I have no illusions about the justice system in any of these countries and feel no need to whitewash, praise or defend any of them.

Unionist wrote:

I think Sean pretty well summed up how I see this fracas as well.

Agreed

I disagree with Sean in Ottawa when he wrote in his last comment that Canada will be hurt by Justin. In the short term, maybe. But the Chinese are fully aware of the political climate in Canada and the general election in October. The Chinese probably aren’t wasting too much time on figuring out the best way to deal with Justin. 

WWWTT wrote:

I disagree with Sean in Ottawa when he wrote in his last comment that Canada will be hurt by Justin. In the short term, maybe. But the Chinese are fully aware of the political climate in Canada and the general election in October. The Chinese probably aren’t wasting too much time on figuring out the best way to deal with Justin. 

Ok we do not agree. I think the comment from you about short term damage only makes no sense:

The Chinese probably are not assuming anything about Canada's politics or a potential change of government in the fall (perhaps to a party that may or may not be any different).

Canada is being hurt but this and this is not that short term. Take the Canola. Canada was the largest supplier to China with respect to Canola. If China and Canada relations do not improve by the time the large inventory China now has is consumes, China will buy elsewhere. If they do this is not a short term problem. Once China finds a new supplier Canada should not assume that an election and some sunchine blown at them will make them drop the new supplier and come back to us. This is unlikely -- more likely is that China share the purchases more evenly so as to have more leverage thant he supplier. Hence Canada loses half of the market personally and all now. That is if things do not remain bad for an extended time in which case canada loses all the market long enough that new trade realities replace Canada as a supplier.

Just one example.

This is the problem with trade action: rarely is it ever of short term effect.

In any case, my comment simply was that Canada is paying the price of a conflict cause by incompetence on the part of our PM.

Canada had a delicate issue caught between China and the US and Trudeau's response was to insult the Chinese instead of trying to make it better.

China has proven time and again that it sees trade as part of a longer relationship. Countries that insult China do not recover the relationship quickly. Truth is that there is a lot of personality in these decisions and this is also true of many countries. The kinds of comments Trudeau made are not the kind that would be easy for any country to ignore.

I also think that the Chinese see the Liberals differently -- the party of Pierre Trudeau and Jean Chrétien (with his Team Canada missions). They could feel more betrayed by Trudeau than if it had come from Stephen Harper. The kind of imediate and rude backing of the US position from Canada my have been expected fromt he Conservatives but I suspect it came as a surprise from the Liberals and the Chinese will want to deliver a sharp and perhaps long-term rebuke until it sees a change.

Also when it comes to long-term realities -- China is always working on new friends. Canada has competitors in many areas.

I am not sure how China feels about the Pacific trade deal the Liberals signed either. It was designed to contain China.

Seens to me some contradiction between comments 765 and 764

Belgian Cybersecurity Center Finds No Evidence of Huawei Spying Threat Despite US Claims

https://on.rt.com/9sbi

"Despite repeated warnings and scaremongering from Washington [and Ottawa], Belgium's center for cybersecurity has not found any evidence to suggest that equipment provided by Chinese telecom giant Huawei could be used for spying purposes..."

And increasingly at least going by  many of the postings on this 'progressive' board, the vassal citizenry may have been convinced to like it more than not.

NDPP wrote:

And increasingly at least going by  many of the postings on this 'progressive' board, the vassal citizenry may have been convinced to like it more than not.

I think that the extreme nature of this kind of rhetoric makes it more difficult for you to reach people with your opinions. I do not think that things are as polarized here as you and some others often make out. This type of rhetoric with people who, if you want to make any headway, are the kind of people presumably you would need to bend to your position but this only sends them further away from you.

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

kropotkin1951 wrote:

I think the Chinese government officials see no major difference between one Canadian corporate party or another.  The Chinese government is capable of hurting Canada economically. The US is our major trading partner and the Chinese know it so I don't see how we can't be caught in someones squeeze play.

Canada is no longer a middle power like it was for a brief period prior to the new millennium it is a vassal state again like it used to be under the British and when your empire goes to war so do you whether you like it or not.

The recent behaviour of the Liberals has served to damage the reputation that Canada had for rule of law. It is a contradiction to the message that the Liberals were trying to deliver to the Chinese that they had no choice.

The fact is, as I see it, Canada has so little power that thte only strength it could have would be by being consistent, ethical and fair and maintaining some of the seperation between executive and legal branches. This seperation serves not just to protect the judiciary but also the executive which would be less vulnerable to pressure. The Liberal government have set the case back for Canada on all these fronts.

A country without much power in a world where it has to engage countries with considerable power needs to show the kind of discipline and ethical compass that the Liberals and Conservatives do not seem to be able to locate.

This statement is at the heart of why we do not see eye to eye on many international issues. I do not see Canada as having a reputation for adhering to the rule of law. Both the LavScam and Huawei are symptomatic of our place in the imperial order of things. We are not an independent country we are again part of an empire and our elected politicians are merely window dressing on a corrupt fascist system.

SNC is one of the top engineering firms for the imperial forces that are destroying our planet. Canada is not currently a democracy IMO but the curtain is being raised and the smoke is clearing and the problem is that Canadians don't want to look in the mirror because the delusions they live under allow them to have their corporations and military plunder the planet to sustain our unsustainable lifestyle.

Indeed it is an excellent example about how you lie about what other people are saying twisting it into some construction of your own in order to create a straw man that you can attack. Very typical of what you bring here. It is also very much why I have so little respect for you and anyone more interested in the attack than taking a second to acknowledge what the person was actually saying.

I was very. fucking. clear. I was speaking about reputation. Your response was about reality. Would you like me to look up definitions of "reputation" versus "reality" to help you?

The reality is that you attacked me when in fact we probably have the same opinion on the topic but you built a straw man just to load up your poison pen shit. I think there is a huge difference between Canada's international reputation on a pile of things and the reality. But then again I bet you would agree with that -- just that truth did not fit into your attack of the hour.

This is example of reputation

https://www.theglobaleconomy.com/rankings/wb_ruleoflaw/

https://worldjusticeproject.org/our-work/research-and-data/wjp-rule-law-...

https://worldjusticeproject.org/our-work/wjp-rule-law-index/wjp-open-gov...

https://nomadcapitalist.com/2017/04/30/best-countries-rule-of-law/

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Sean please get some help.

I am sorry, have I recently suggested in any way that I give a shit what you think anymore?

Thanks for the update NDPP!

I'm under the assumption that China's economy is too powerful next to the US. As we're all aware, the wealthy who pull the strings only care about money, and China has way too much of that for the US to simply push aside. 

Britain I can see dumping the US in a heartbeat. New Zealand even faster! Australia is the wild card. Australia really needs China's consumption for it's raw materials, so I don't understand why it's suppoting the US? Probably a "white is right" thing. Canada is easy to explain. Our geographical curse next to the US and our shared imperialist past/present/future will pull this country under soon enough. And with feather weight intellects like Justin, the sell out just keeps going!

UK Defense Secretary Booted After Huawei 'Leak'

https://youtu.be/cZXXGgWZk6U

"...Donald Trump's demands cost other people money. There are some people within the business community here in Britain that don't want to make an enemy of China..."

In Canada too -  Canola farmers as well. But apparently in our US satellite regime, Trump trumps.

American Imperialism and China's May 4th Movement

https://journal-neo.org/2019/05/01/american-imperialism-and-china-s-may-...

"...The harassment of China by the US and its allies continues in other spheres with Trump's trade war against China continuing with the attempt to cut off Iranian oil supplies to China, and with the continued illegal detention by Canada of Huawei's CFO, Meng Wanzhou, seized by Canadian authorities last December on a bogus US extradition request. She next appears in a Vancouver court on May 8 to set a date for the extradition hearings to take place.

In retaliation China has stepped up its response to Canada's actions by blocking not only imports of Canadian canola, which has caused several billion dollars in export losses to Canadian farmers this winter, but this week its scheduling of the May 8th hearing, has blocked imports of Canadian soybeans, peas, [pork] and other agricultural products. The ban on those Canadian products is clearly timed to send a signal ahead of the court appearance of Meng, and it will not be the end.

The American pressure on China in the economic and military spheres, the French and British threats to add to it by sending their war ships to the South China Sea, the Canadian actions in arresting Meng Wanzhou, these are all expressions of the neo-colonial mindset of the Western leaders and what Chinese leaders refer to as 'white racism.' Their actions signal that they still see China as a nation to be brought under their control and exploited instead of respected and treated as an equal..."

Thanks for posting this story NDPP. I’m not sure how to take it/explain it or how to spin it?  It’s from the ICM, the liberals with US involvement so by default I don’t trust it. 

Which explains the desperate folly of cries for help from Ottwa to Washington in #783 as Canucklhead Liberal politicos realize the deep dark hole they've now dug for themselves with China and the sabotage of their second largest trading partner. This is a monumental mistake which will cost Canadians more than they can possibly imagine. Especially since there will be nothing gained from Trump for this self-sacrificial stupidity.

Huawei deal could give China 'enormous leverage,' warns former U.S. Homeland Security secretary

Michael Chertoff cautions Canada to reconsider any dealings with Chinese tech giant Huawei

https://www.cbc.ca/radio/asithappens/huawei-deal-could-give-china-enormous-leverage-warns-former-u-s-homeland-security-secretary-1.5122039

Meng Faces Canadian Court - China Calls Hearing 'A Serious Political Event'

http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1149268.shtml

"Meng made an appearance at a court hearing on Wednesday at the Supreme Court of British Columbia in Vancouver. Her lawyers made three new and major disclosures to the court, including rebutting key allegations in the criminal case against the CFO, complaining of repeated violations of her legal rights under the Canadian Charter on Rights and Freedoms, and revealing that her illegal detention violated Canada's extradition law.

The Chinese Foreign Ministry reiterated its position on the matter. 'The abuse of the extradition treaty between the US and Canada is a serious political event that violates the legitimate rights and interests of Chinese citizens, and the Chinese side urges the US to immediately revoke the arrest warrant and extradition request and asks Canada to immediately release Meng,' Geng Shuang, foreign ministry spokesperson, told a press conference on Thursday. She was told by the judge to return to the court in September.

While Meng continues to fight her extradition to the US by arguing the case is political in nature, the Chinese company has demonstrated rising confidence that it is well prepared and well positioned for a long legal battle, analysts said."

China Formally Arrests 2 Canadians in Case Linked to Huawei

https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/china-formally-arrests-2-canadians-in-ca...

"Chinese foreign ministry spokesman Lu Kang said Thursday that Michael Kovrig and Michael Spavor have been arrested for allegedly stealing state secrets. 'We always act in accordance with the law, and we hope Canada will not make irresponsible remarks on China's legal construction and judicial handling,' Lu said at a regularly scheduled news conference. Both were detained on Dec 10 after Meng Wanzhou, a senior executive with telecom giant Huawei, were arrested in Vancouver, Canada, on Dec 1 at the request of US authorities..."

Canada-China Relations Hit 'Rock Bottom' and at 'Freezing Point': Chinese Envoy

https://www.nationalnewswatch.com/2019/05/23/canada-china-relations-hit-...

"China's ambassador to Canada says the bilateral relationship is now at 'rock bottom' compared to any time since diplomatic ties were established decades ago. Lu Shaye said he's saddened Canada-China relations are at what he called a 'freezing point.' Lu's remarks come at a time of heightened tensions following the December arrest of Chinese telecom executive Meng Wanzhou in Vancouver on an extradition request of the United States. In January, he told Candian journalists that Meng's arrest was the 'backstabbing' of a friend and said it was evidence of white supremacism..."

Sorry China, just following our 'rules based order'.

There's a comfortable culture of self-satisfied arrogance and stupidity with a studied indifference to anything but icm mainstream orthodoxies that will be very hard to shake. Throw in the Sinophobia which has long been a Canadian custom and it's a very tough nut to crack.

China Warns Canada of 'Consequences' of Helping US in Huawei Case

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/china-canada-consequences-us-huawei-1.5...

"We hope that the Canadian side can have a clear understanding of the consequences of endangering itself for the gains of the US..."

Me too but I see no indications.

Meng Wanzhou's Lawyers Call On Trudeau Government To End Extradition Proceedings

https://globalnews.ca/news/5425389/meng-wanzhou-lawyers-call-trudeau-gov...

"The defence team for Huawei executive Meng Wanzhou is calling on the government of Canada to end the extradition against their client calling the case 'palpably' political. In a letter sent to Justice Minister David Lametti, Meng's lawyers argue that the extradition proceedings against the embattled tech executive are 'without merit' and stopping the proceedings would be in the best interest of Canada.

'These extradition proceedings are unique,' lawyers Richard Peck, David Martin, Scott Fenton and Eric Gollardi said in a joint statement Monday. 'The factual and legal underpinnings for Ms Meng's extradition are without precedent in Canadian law. No similar extradition request has ever been entertained by Canada,' the three page release said. 'Palpably', it is brought for political purposes..."

Palpably.

Link to Lawyers' Release

https://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/lawyers-urge-canadian-authoriti...

"First, there could never be jurisdiction to prosecute Ms Meng in Canada. Canada does not police the conduct of foreign persons in foreign lands that have nothing to do with Canada..."

I hope Trump/Pompeo look kindly upon our so eager to please politicians for pains taken on their behalf. Clearly, they really moved their tails for them. This must be what Trudeau means when he announced shortly after his return from meetings in Washington, 'enhanced cooperation with the United States.'